ESS SIMS 3 Year Contracts

[enjay]

I read 15.6 as:-

 

During the three year initial term we will increase prices at a maximum of 2.5%+CPIH

At the end of the initial term, or the end of a renewal term, we can give you 120 days notice of an increase greater than 2.5%+CPIH; if the customer wishes to do so they can terminate at this point.

 

There doesn't seems to be anything in here about get out early clauses :-(

 

That's not how I read it, @Seb1780

As we're signing a 3-year contract, there's no point writing a clause in that which says what they can do in year 4.

 

"Furthermore, ESS retains the right to revise the Charges by more than the Max Charge Increase by giving written notice no less than 120 days before the end of the Initial Term and/or any Renewal Term, provided that ESS serves a valid notice of this change"

 

So, I think this clause means they could give notice 730 days (or any number 120+) before the end of the initial term stating they will actually be charging 5%+CPIH, and that would take effect at the next annual payment. If they do that, we'd be able to cancel early.

[mthomas08]

Anyone else think it laughable to have something they choose to call a Max Charge Increase if later in the same clause they give themselves permission to increase the charge by more than that?!

 

Putting themselves first above all else. The contract/blog and all information being sent out is 'them first' and us 'second'.

 

Our decision regarding SIMs is now moved to the next SLT meeting. This gives me time to do the final checks/questions on other MIS systems and within the time they want us to sign up.

[paulkerton]

"Furthermore, ESS retains the right to revise the Charges by more than the Max Charge Increase by giving written notice no less than 120 days before the end of the Initial Term and/or any Renewal Term, provided that ESS serves a valid notice of this change"

Provided that they server valid notice of this change.

Meaning as long as they let you know, they can increase it and you've agreed to it within your three year deal.

 

Basically, if they decide that actually in Year 2, it won't be 2.5% + CPIH, it'll be 8% + CPIH and they let you know before December 2nd 2022 ready for April 1st 2023, then you're stuck. The only get out would be if they failed to notify you before your 120 days to the anniversary of renewal.

[enjay]

Basically, if they decide that actually in Year 2, it won't be 2.5% + CPIH, it'll be 8% + CPIH and they let you know before December 2nd 2022 ready for April 1st 2023, then you're stuck. The only get out would be if they failed to notify you before your 120 days to the anniversary of renewal.

 

"If the Customer does not agree to the increase in the Charges, it may elect to terminate the Agreement in accordance with clause 16.2."

Again, that's not my read but I'm not a contract law specialist. I think that means we can cancel with 90 days notice, the period stated in 16.2, if we don't agree to their increase. I suspect the get-out only exists if they increase above the Max Charge Increase to which I've already agreed though.

[paulkerton]

"If the Customer does not agree to the increase in the Charges, it may elect to terminate the Agreement in accordance with clause 16.2."

Again, that's not my read but I'm not a contract law specialist. I think that means we can cancel with 90 days notice, the period stated in 16.2, if we don't agree to their increase. I suspect the get-out only exists if they increase above the Max Charge Increase to which I've already agreed though.

 

But you're missing the key point

ESS retains the right to revise the Charges by more than the Max Charge Increase by giving written notice no less than 120 days before the end of the Initial Term and/or any Renewal Term, provided that ESS serves a valid notice of this change. If the Customer does not agree to the increase in the Charges, it may elect to terminate the Agreement in accordance with clause 16.2.

 

Before the end of the Initial Term and/or any Renewal Term.

If you're in a three year deal, the end of the Initial Term (starting a new deal) or any Renewal Term (what is happening right now) is at the end of that three years, not mid-contract.

[techie17]

Is this renewal for 3 years for SIMS as well as FMS? I just want to double check. SIMS we can get away with moving, for FMS we are stuck between a rock and hard place as the school is moving to our MAT in August so the school would only need FMS for four months.

[mavhc]

They can't say "after 1 year we'll increase the charges by 500%, and also you can only terminate after 3 years", no one should sign that.

 

Therefore it either means: "You can terminate after 1 year", or no one should be agreeing to that contract

[paulkerton]

They can't say "after 1 year we'll increase the charges by 500%, and also you can only terminate after 3 years", no one should sign that.

 

Therefore it either means: "You can terminate after 1 year", or no one should be agreeing to that contract

 

This is why you should be engaging your legal teams to check the terms and conditions of the contracts before you sign them. At a minimum, to check the clauses you're not happy/are unsure of. We can all speculate, but they are the experts and are retained by LAs, Schools and Trusts for a reason.

 

Especially this curveball move of a contract.

[steven_layton_sl]

Has anyone given ESS their notice yet, just so its in place, even if you don't yet know what you plan to do?

If so, how did you do this? Via phone, emaile etc?

[enjay]

Before the end of the Initial Term and/or any Renewal Term.

If you're in a three year deal, the end of the Initial Term (starting a new deal) or any Renewal Term (what is happening right now) is at the end of that three years, not mid-contract.[/color]

 

I agree it does read that way, but why would you write a clause in a 3-year agreement stating what you can do in year 4?

[PrimaryNetMan]

I agree it does read that way, but why would you write a clause in a 3-year agreement stating what you can do in year 4?

because

[paulkerton]

Has anyone given ESS their notice yet, just so its in place, even if you don't yet know what you plan to do?

If so, how did you do this? Via phone, emaile etc?

 

We have. Using their system I believe. Manager handles that for us.

[Ditto]

Catching up with the thread. My single biggest take-away is the need to take legal advice on the contract. For those that have the contract, is there a clear unequivocal definition of 'Initial Term'? On the "Renewal Term, is there anything to suggest it wouldn't be another 3 year period?

[howartp]

Catching up with the thread. My single biggest take-away is the need to take legal advice on the contract. For those that have the contract, is there a clear unequivocal definition of 'Initial Term'? On the "Renewal Term, is there anything to suggest it wouldn't be another 3 year period?

 

‘Initial Term’ means the initial term of this Agreement specified in the Agreement Summary or the Portal;

 

‘Renewal Term’ mean each subsequent period of thirty six (36) months after the end of the Initial Term

 

[From my SIMS Direct Renewal Quote]: The initial term of your new contract will be 3 years, giving you the certainty of a fixed cost in year 1, and a capped increase of CPI (Consumer Price Index) + 2.5% per annum for years 2 & 3.

[enjay]

‘Renewal Term’ mean each subsequent period of thirty six (36) months after the end of the Initial Term

 

It renews for another 3 years?! Other things which have a 3-year lock-in at the start then go to 1 year renewals after that.

[PrimaryNetMan]

It renews for another 3 years?! Other things which have a 3-year lock-in at the start then go to 1 year renewals after that.

 

You must be new to ParentPay.

[Dr_Zeux]

Has anyone given ESS their notice yet, just so its in place, even if you don't yet know what you plan to do?

If so, how did you do this? Via phone, emaile etc?

 

Yes, via email to [email protected]

[TechMonkey]

‘Initial Term’ means the initial term of this Agreement specified in the Agreement Summary or the Portal;

 

‘Renewal Term’ mean each subsequent period of thirty six (36) months after the end of the Initial Term

 

[From my SIMS Direct Renewal Quote]: The initial term of your new contract will be 3 years, giving you the certainty of a fixed cost in year 1, and a capped increase of CPI (Consumer Price Index) + 2.5% per annum for years 2 & 3.

 

So renewal term will also be 3 years, not 1 as some have said. Schools will be constantly locked into 3 year periods, which is interesting as EES said that they were moving to this model to align themselves with other providers. Other providers do 3 years for first contract and then 1 year after.

 

EDIT: I will guess they will rely heavily on auto renewal with no mercy of the 90 day notice period. Starting to feel like evergreen copier contracts.

Edited December 7, 2021 by TechMonkey

[HarkNowHear]

Anyone else had the 'SIMS: Clarity for the Future' email this afternoon/evening?

 

With widespread release of SIMS Connected in Q1 2022, we are now able to provide you with anytime, anywhere, browser-based access to the whole SIMS suite of products.

 

[mattysmith80]

Sims Connected is literally just Hosted Sims but you just access in your browser instead of the Remote Desktop App.... Plus you have to pay for the privilege on top of your Entitlement. This is where Sims just dont get it.... You shouldn't be paying for the privilege to go cloud, it should be as standard like the other major competitors....

You gotta laugh at them saying they are making £40m investment.... Thats only because you have to because you bought such a crap product that needs significant investment

[FragglePete]

Anyone else had the 'SIMS: Clarity for the Future' email this afternoon/evening?

 

Yes I did, and I just don't like to tone of the message at all. Especially the accusation made that competitors are spreading disinformation and telling us the rules on procurement.

 

The relationship with schools has been so soured. I feel we're going to be stuck for a while, just haven't got the capacity to look at anything else at the moment.

 

Pete

[Damon]

The terminology is similar to their previous contracts but rather than being in the renewal term as you are at present (1 year) you're entering a new initial term (3 year) and if the renewals are another 3 years.. wow!

 

I think it's been touched on in other posts but the next 3 years would be subject to limits on cost increases but they reserve the right to increase even more than that for the renewal. I.e. when you start year 4. You would be informed of that increase at least 120 days before the start of year 4 and you would need to make a decision 90 days before the start of year 4. So essentially, if you don't like the price hike you have 30 days to make the decision to quit SIMS otherwise you're locked in for another 3 years.

[localzuk]

Their comment on requirement for procurement processes ignores DfE guidelines, school finance policies etc... Schools don't generally ignore the guidance set by the govt, and don't generally ignore their policies for 1 company that is effectively playing dirty... We have policies for a reason.

 

However, their change of language with regards the notice for cancellation is very helpful. Takes a tiny bit of the sting off, but there's still a need to be expeditious if anyone wanted to get a new MIS in place by 1st April 2022.

Edited December 8, 2021 by localzuk

[paulkerton]

SIMS Connected is just an HTML5 client for Remote Desktop - meaning you're still trying to use a Windows XP designed interface on a touch screen 10" tablet, or a 6" phone.

 

What a wonderful, inaccessible, uninclusive UX that is going to be. Oh the fun of trying to tap one element and hitting three at the same time.

 

They just do not get it, do they?

[sister_annex]

Have people read the FAQ's here: https://ess-sims.co.uk/sites/default/files/2021-12/SIMS-Contract-Changes-2022-FAQs_0.pdf

 

The language used, the indirect (direct) digs at other competitors and the patronising tone it takes against schools/MATs wanting to do the best for their school is honestly a joke (imo)

 

I was going to quote a few parts but then one that made me laugh the most was this:

 

SIMS remains by far the most widely used and functionally complete school management information system (MIS) in the UK and is familiar to the majority of UK education professionals.

 

ESS are planning to invest £40 million into SIMS and FMS over the next 3 years, to make them even better solutions for all of our customers. That is many times what any of our competitors invest and will allow us to dramatically improve and modernise these products. We call this ‘SIMS Next Gen’. Purchasing a school MIS is invariably a long-term commitment by both customer and supplier. A MIS is not something which schools would sensibly wish to change from year to year. Indeed, schools typically remain with the same system for many years.

 

So in deciding which MIS to use it makes sense for schools to consider a supplier’s long term viability, investment plans, scale and ownership as well as the breadth and depth of its MIS functionality both now and as it is likely to be in the future.

 

We believe that on all those counts ESS and SIMS score highly.

 

SIMS was designed by its users, and we are committed to evolving SIMS with the needs of local authorities, schools, academies and trusts. Virtually every teaching and school administration professional understands SIMS, and it is supported by an unrivalled community of experts.

 

ParentPay Group, which owns ESS, is budgeting to invest £40 million into SIMS and FMS over the next three years, to make them even better solutions for education professionals. We call this ‘SIMS Next Gen’. We believe that SIMS, the first and broadest MIS, as a result of this commitment, is best placed to support you into the future.

 

 

There are too many points in there to pick at, but just that first line... no those two words on the first line... 'Functionally Complete' yeah that's why we have to spend an absolute fortune a year in third party bolt-ons that make it work.