Damon

This is absolutely the right thing to do from the perspective of The Key and not a massive surprise. I'm not sure how this wouldn't qualify as 'material change' that would necessitate re-procurement though? Are all contract terms the same, service levels, system capabilities and so on? I doubt anyone would be making the case that Integris and Scholarpack are the same as Arbor in terms of functionality. I seem to recall MIS suppliers having an issue with ESS planning to migrate SIMS 7 users to SIMS Primary when that was a thing as it was a material change in functionality. If I was a MAT, I'd probably want to take independent legal advice over this.

For what it's worth, In the same timeline as the above: Created an Arbor product and did the marketing and promotion (still active) Created several SIMS products and did the marketing and promotion (still active) 3rd line SIMS tech (still active) Former SIMS User group chair for years etc So I also have a stake in the success of other MIS' too. I appreciate it's different to a perspective from a school though. After a discussion with mods years ago I put the statement in my sig to try and make people aware of what I do but I'm open to amending it if required.

Thanks Alistair, I do see where people are coming from on this and agree with some of the sentiment. I think you make a good point that it's not either/or so will take that on board. I think I arrived late to this party and had missed all the fun goings on prior to that! To clarify the ESS side of things, the way the contracts are historically structured between the Schools, LAs and ESS is that the schools pay a fee to ESS and a certain amount of this covers a limited support element. By the local authorities taking on the role of support, this amount that has been charged to the school is passed on to the local authority in the form of a rebate to ensure that the schools aren't paying twice. Arbor does the same but it also provides what it terms a 'profit share' on top for schools that are referred to Arbor by the LA. Bromcom also used to rebate in the same way as ESS in cases where schools bought directly from Bromcom as the support element was being billed to the school as part of the SaaS fee. So this money was then passed on to a support team if they later took on support, again to ensure the school wasn't paying twice. Support teams tend to price their services based on offsetting the amount received through this process. However, when Bromcom was purchased at LA level, it's generally procured as product only so there's no rebate for support fees. Likewise, these days if you buy Bromcom in conjunction with a support team, there is no rebate, a discount is just applied so that the school pay less and the support centre's fees are more transparent.

Yeah that's me and I've communicated with you via that email address in the past with no attempt to hide my identity. What I said about my role still stands though, all of those were short term interim stuff to cover gaps that were done on a part time basis around my other roles over the course of about 6 years I think. I still have an opinion on this topic regardless - when I speak about MIS in general on here I tend to say people should explore the market and that both Arbor & Bromcom are good alternatives to SIMS. I tried to cover bases in my sig but that's fine if you don't trust my perspective. That's absolutely your prerogative.

Yikes ok well I'm not sure what representative means to you but I'm a consultant so work with multiple companies including Bromcom as per my signature. I'm not on the payroll but work with them on various projects as and when the needs arise. Just like the migration challenge as I can be the independent judge along with a well known industry bod who used to work at ESS. I also work for a big support team that supports Arbor and SIMS too. I spent years at an LA doing the same thing and whilst I can see where you're coming from to an extent, regardless of my links to Bromcom I'm against the concept of paying cash to a public body based on an incentive scheme. Even ESS don't do that!

Haha well it's a tough crowd eh! The pod link was from linkedin so maybe just a throwaway account to upload it on the platform without issues?

Ooof! Well this thread has taken off a bit. 5k+ views and now a sticky. Guess it's touched a nerve with folks and I can understand why. Could be why someone posted up a NotebookLM podcast of it: How is NotebookLM so damn good at creating these things! I find podcasts a good way to digest a lot of info. I wonder if Edugeek could use it to create weekly updates!

It has to be said, when i've googled weird SIMS errors in the past, there's generally a result on Scomis' KB. Otherwise i'm prefixing my search with 'site:edugeek.net'

I didn't intend to make any independence claims, that sentence came from my limited understanding of whether it's appropriate to share external links that could be perceived as promotional. But likewise, I appreciate that whilst most Support units try to be agnostic there can still be some bias even if it's unconscious. However, they are partners with ESS, Bromcom and Arbor, and all were given the opportunity to host sessions with their schools. So to be fair to them, they did their bit when it comes to giving their customers options. I haven't watched the sessions myself but could see the value they might have for anyone who wants a light touch review of the top 3.

Here's another update from Scomis on their newsfeed. One thing that's helpful is they have links to the MIS Discovery sessions they hosted with ESS, Arbor and Bromcom. So for anyone wanting a light touch exploration of what's on offer from those three they can take a look at the public videos on youtube via the links below. Mods - Hope this is ok to share as it's a public post from Scomis and not promoting a specific supplier. Scomis Newsletter: First off, by now you will have all seen our notice that has been made public about ceasing our SIMS hosting and SIMS support services after 31st March 2025. Our other services remain unaffected, including our support of other MIS applications. This has sparked an enormous amount of interest across the sector and consequently, you may be contacted by other organisations. We would like to remind you that Scomis is a public sector traded service and part of Devon County Council, and as such we have a duty to provide best value from public funding. We have a 40 year record of delivering high quality services to schools and as a trusted partner we are committed to maintaining successful, long-standing relationships with our customers and partners that are based on mutual respect and trust. Recognising and responding to what is important to our customers is what Scomis is all about. We are passionate about delivering the best possible customer experience and constantly challenge ourselves to improve. If you need to discuss anything related to your services, please contact your account manager. Get in touch by calling Scomis on 01392 385300 and select option 5, or email [email protected]. MIS Discovery Days Earlier this year we hosted a number of MIS Discovery Days sessions, showcasing options for schools’ MIS provision. These sessions included deep dives into each MIS and are all available to . If you missed them, or would like a recap, you can . Scomis Newsletter 17th October 2024 | LinkedIn

Haha, you've got a point about the title change Ditto! I will say that as someone who has always looked up to Scomis as a bit of a leader in the support space, this news feels particularly significant and perhaps the sign of things to come. It doesn't look like ESS are going to allow third parties to support Next Gen so the ecosystem that's served both ESS and the schools so well for the past few decades is at risk of falling apart. I'm biased in terms of wanting that ecosystem to continue as I started my career there, but I really hope that it finds a way to continue through new partnerships.

If you choose to go to SIMS Connected, try to align the Connected contract dates with your SIMS/FMS contract. Otherwise, if you sign up for 3 years with SIMS Connected, you'll still be paying for it even if your SIMS contract ends in a year and you decide to move away.

ESS also referenced the use of SQL backups to show how it was easy for schools to migrate away from SIMS when they were defending themselves to the CMA last time.

Hi All, we have all the details for the nominated charities and educational establishments and the Bromcom accounts team will get these all processed. I'll let you know when the payments have been made.

Hi Steve, would you mind checking your PMs

No one was submitting any data here and all responses were simply descriptions of a concept or method as to how it could be done. Folks on this forum are professionals that are generally the ones explaining to the rest of the school how to keep data secure and compliant. 👍

No problem David, drop me the details when you're ready and we can get it wrapped up before the summer break.

Quick! You've got less than two weeks before the deadline!

No probs Marci, take some time to think about it and let me know when you're ready. Bromcom have set a deadline of 26th July to get all the charities agreed and payments made so a shout out to all winners - please make your decision by then otherwise myself and Nick will have to nominate a charity in your absence. Once all payments have been made, we'll do a wrap up post to announce who the money went to.

Hi Everyone, Firstly I’d like to say thanks to everyone who got involved in the discussions both on here and LinkedIn. There’s been lots of good debate about the problem at hand and indeed this was one of the objectives, having collective effort and discussion about the SIMS migration challenges created by ESS. It’s clear that pulling school data out of SIMS is highly problematic. Whilst we did have potential solutions for some of the lookups, there are still a lot of gaps, particularly for the legacy modules which hold essential information for Secondary schools. This is the school’s own data and should be made available to them as part of offboarding. Bromcom hold firm in their belief that it’s unacceptable for schools to not have full access to their data when offboarding and are offering legal indemnity to any schools that wish to migrate using a SIMS backup file. This is essential data owned by the schools and creates a significant barrier and risk for them to migrate in a way that complies with ESS’ rules. Conclusion of this competition: The competition results confirmed to Bromcom that migrating data in line with ESS’ terms and conditions mean it is not possible to migrate the entirety of a school’s MIS dataset. Furthermore, even more concerning for ESS Hosted schools is that they are not even permitted to hold a backup of their own data. Competition results: When it comes to the competition, both Bromcom and the moderators were happy to see some great ideas put forward and we had a lot of discussion about who should receive the reward for their nominated charity. As no-one was able to complete the scope, we scored based on the following criteria: How much of the scope is it covering? It is original work or referenced? How innovative is it? Is this information helpful to the migration project? The moderators (myself and Nick Finnemore) evaluated the participants and after some discussion with Ali Guryel (MD/Founder of Bromcom), the decision was made to expand the prize pot to £5,000 and split between four winners. The highest scorer will receive £2,000 for their charity of choice, with the other 3 receiving £1,000 each for their nominated charity. The 4 prize winners are as follows: Special mention with £2,000 donation: Marci - Automated processing of PDF exports using Power automate Winners of £1,000 donation (in alphabetical order) dhicks - Parsed PDF file concept Steve21 - Coded behaviour outputs with report generator Vikpaw - Lookup queries through SIMS API I will be contacting each of these users individually to obtain their nominated charity or school if they wish to use the money within their establishment. Bromcom thanks all the participants to this competition and hopes this demonstrates how they stand for open and fair competition within the Edtech market.

Thanks everyone, the competition has now closed. I'll have a chat with my co-moderator Nick and let you know the result (aiming for tomorrow).

Thanks for this Vik! It made me question my own searching abilities for a moment and then I saw that it had only just been published by ESS. Funny that eh! This is genuinely super helpful for a lot of reasons, so thanks for posting it.

The closest we have to an entrant is a contribution by Steve21 on this thread! There has been plenty of discussion on LinkedIn about using AI to convert PDFs, screen scraping suggestions and so on but Steve has actually come forward with a suggestion based on the original context. Ironically it was already known that behaviour itself was one of the easier ones to access but that data area was used as an analogy for the less common and harder to define areas that were being collected. But I think it stands regardless. Special mention for Marci's idea on PDF conversion though, I'm new to power automate and loving the ability to do stuff like that in bulk. So in short - It's all to play for Vik and an excellent cause to nominate.

Bromcom also indemnify schools against any legal costs that arise through the use of backups. Just double checked and it's on their site too. I'm not sure if Wonde can gather all information as of today, I know in the past that they didn't, it was just data from the commandreporter. I believe Wonde have an API for the data they store which is how the third parties then access information for their apps.

😂 - if only that had been the original post