ESS SIMS 3 Year Contracts

[mthomas08]

I think the decision for us will be made today.

 

We use SIMs for everything and there are certainly alternatives.

[garbage46]

I have asked again today. We would like a one year or a two year deal. Different person, same response. No deal.

 

I wonder how many schools are part way through multi year agreements with third party support or addons for SIMS which may have influence any decision to stick or move.

 

No need to make a decision today, we all have until the end of March essentially or possibly even until the next census window after that. The MIS providers going to BETT have an opportunity to really demo and show off their products.

[howartp]

Just got this email from Stone King if anyone is interested in attending.

 

Register here.

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]63802[/ATTACH]

 

Did anyone attend the webinar? I was going to but completely forgot about it. Any feedback?

[supportman]

Another blog post from Bromcom about the situation.

 

The G-Cloud Framework is run by the Crown Commercial Services and allows you to make an informed and objective decision on which MIS supplier aligns with your school, by applying award criteria to the solutions on the framework agreement, that meet your requirements.Many MIS providers, including Bromcom, are part of this framework which provides a safe and compliant way of procuring new software packages for schools, provided the terms of the framework agreement are complied with. Decisions must be centred on the information presented against your terms. By following this process correctly you will find a MIS for you, and you specifically.If, having gone through this quick procedure, Bromcom is the selected MIS for you and your community, we will have you up and running by February half-term (based on a decision on or before the 22nd December).

 

https://www.bromcom.com/blogs/g-cloud-procurement

 

Some nice timelines in there as well.

[Seb1780]

Did anyone attend the webinar? I was going to but completely forgot about it. Any feedback?

 

TES article following the seminar posted earlier by @DrCheese

 

https://www.tes.com/news/exclusive-sims-legal-bid-considered-100s-schools

[TechMonkey]

What I don't understand is if you sign up for three years or more, you are normally locking a price in, to ward against increases and have a known cost moving forward. But from what I have read EES say that the price is locked for year 1 and then could increase each year after. So unless being forced why would anyone go for more years?

[howartp]

What I don't understand is if you sign up for three years or more, you are normally locking a price in, to ward against increases and have a known cost moving forward. But from what I have read EES say that the price is locked for year 1 and then could increase each year after. So unless being forced why would anyone go for more years?

 

The contract allows for annual increases of (roughly quoted as) "up to 2.5% plus the published CPIH (Consumer Price Index with Housing)" which at the moment is 2.5% plus 3.8% CPIH.

 

Ours is going to Governors to approve the three year renewal tonight; not that we want to but we're not willing to procure and jump as quickly as SIMS would dictate.

[Ditto]

Did anyone attend the webinar? I was going to but completely forgot about it. Any feedback?

 

I did attended and it was interesting and informative. Stone King were very keen no one recorded the event and they went to lengths to ensure no competitor's were on call or ESS staff. Basically, and I think quite reasonably, they wanted school/academy staff or, as in my case, governors to be the only ones in attendance. So, in part I'm reluctant to say too much. I did ask if I was able to comment on the webinar but they didn't have a chance to reply. I suspect there's nothing to be too concerned about in the meeting on that front, but I am erring on the side of caution to respect their requests.

 

That said, I can report TES have made the following report, https://www.tes.com/news/exclusive-sims-legal-bid-considered-100s-schools, which comments on Stone King so I think people will draw their own conclusions.

 

*** EDIT - apologies to @Seb1780 - I've only just spotted earlier reply linking to the same! ***

Edited December 6, 2021 by Ditto

[Ditto]

The contract allows for annual increases of (roughly quoted as) "up to 2.5% plus the published CPIH (Consumer Price Index with Housing)" which at the moment is 2.5% plus 3.8% CPIH.

 

Ours is going to Governors to approve the three year renewal tonight; not that we want to but we're not willing to procure and jump as quickly as SIMS would dictate.

Do you know the value of the contract? Some are of the opinion that a three year renewal *could* require going through a procurement process anyway? I do believe that's a disputed point however.

[howartp]

Do you know the value of the contract? Some are of the opinion that a three year renewal *could* require going through a procurement process anyway? I do believe that's a disputed point however.

 

Our renewal is a little over £13,000 per annum, and our internal limit for needing 3 quotes or a single supplier approval from Governors is £15k.

 

It’s for that reason that we went to Governors last night for the renewal.

[localzuk]

Our renewal is a little over £13,000 per annum, and our internal limit for needing 3 quotes or a single supplier approval from Governors is £15k.

It’s for that reason that we went to Governors last night for the renewal.

When considering costs, you must take into account the total value of the contract over its contracted period, not the yearly cost - https://www.gov.uk/guidance/buying-procedures-and-procurement-law-for-schools/before-you-start

 

So, with your values, your contract is basically worth £40,000. https://www.gov.uk/guidance/buying-procedures-and-procurement-law-for-schools/find-the-right-way-to-buy

[howartp]

When considering costs, you must take into account the total value of the contract over its contracted period, not the yearly cost - https://www.gov.uk/guidance/buying-procedures-and-procurement-law-for-schools/before-you-start

 

So, with your values, your contract is basically worth £40,000. https://www.gov.uk/guidance/buying-procedures-and-procurement-law-for-schools/find-the-right-way-to-buy

Correct.

 

And per that page, I have to consult our school's procurement rules, which say that I need 3 quotes for between £15,000 and £50,000 or that Single Supplier approval may be granted if x, y and/or z.

[paulkerton]

Ours is going to Governors to approve the three year renewal tonight; not that we want to but we're not willing to procure and jump as quickly as SIMS would dictate.

... ?!

 

Sorry, but I don't get the logic here.

This reads like you're saying "We're staying with SIMS for three more years because we're not letting ESS push us into having to do a procurement process, so we're going to sign a contract with them for £40k?"

[howartp]

... ?!

 

Sorry, but I don't get the logic here.

This reads like you're saying "We're staying with SIMS for three more years because we're not letting ESS push us into having to do a procurement process, so we're going to sign a contract with them for £40k?"

 

My BlueSky target last year was to work with the Deputy Head and Data Manager to consider whether SIMS was right for us, and write a report by 31st July recommending whether or not to procure an alternative. Due to TAGs, I was only able to do my own investigations as they were both unavailable. We reconvened conversations in October this year but regardless of cost we cannot undergo a consideration, investigation and procurement exercise in the 6 weeks between the SIMS renewal being published and the deadline for renewing whilst giving appropriate due diligence to it.

 

I don't see us still using SIMS in 18 months, but in the meantime we have no choice but to renew.

[TechMonkey]

... ?!

 

Sorry, but I don't get the logic here.

This reads like you're saying "We're staying with SIMS for three more years because we're not letting ESS push us into having to do a procurement process, so we're going to sign a contract with them for £40k?"

 

Of course. Going to stay with them out of sheer spite and log support calls passive aggressively.

(This is purely for the lols, not pointed at previously quoted user or anyone.)

Edited December 7, 2021 by TechMonkey

[supportman]

All I think when I hear people renewing, is the next 3 years of upgrade chaos, disjointed and out of date systems and 7% price increases.

[Ditto]

I don't see us still using SIMS in 18 months, but in the meantime we have no choice but to renew.

 

What's the penalty for pulling out of the 3 year contract once you're signed. I understand the predicament the school leadership and governors are in. Are ESS relying on this? Yes, I think so, and every school that reluctantly signs is a win for ESS. There is another option - dispute the legality of the renewal, whether individually or collectively. In my eyes the school has been 'bullied' into a 3 year renewal. I'd like to see schools/academies/trusts treat that in the same way as they should treat bullying in schools.

[Damon]

we cannot undergo a consideration, investigation and procurement exercise in the 6 weeks between the SIMS renewal being published and the deadline for renewing whilst giving appropriate due diligence to it.

 

If you're talking about the normal 90 day notice period, I don't think there is one because ESS have terminated your existing contract. The new contract will begin in April if you accept the terms. Double check, but I believe you have until March 31st to make a decision.

[Damon]

What's the penalty for pulling out of the 3 year contract once you're signed. I understand the predicament the school leadership and governors are in. Are ESS relying on this? Yes, I think so, and every school that reluctantly signs is a win for ESS. There is another option - dispute the legality of the renewal, whether individually or collectively. In my eyes the school has been 'bullied' into a 3 year renewal. I'd like to see schools/academies/trusts treat that in the same way as they should treat bullying in schools.

 

The termination clauses should be in the contract. I would imagine it's pretty standard, i.e. you buy your way out by paying the remaining years of the contract up front. Seeing as they haven't allowed any negotiation on the 3 year terms, I wouldn't expect any deals to be done on early termination. It wouldn't be in their interests to do so but likewise that's the nature of any contract. As always, read what you're signing up for

[howartp]

The termination clauses should be in the contract. I would imagine it's pretty standard, i.e. you buy your way out by paying the remaining years of the contract up front. Seeing as they haven't allowed any negotiation on the 3 year terms, I wouldn't expect any deals to be done on early termination. It wouldn't be in their interests to do so but likewise that's the nature of any contract. As always, read what you're signing up for

 

This is a very good point.

 

I had read the contract to find out what increases were likely (let's face it, they're gonna increase them).

 

I've just re-read and (my paraphrasing): "We can increase the charges after 1 year, and we'll try and tell you about it, but if you don't agree with the increased charges you can terminate the contract".

 

I can't find anything that mentions any penalty or requirement to pay the 2nd and 3rd years if you terminate the contract on these grounds?

[enjay]

I've just re-read and (my paraphrasing): "We can increase the charges after 1 year, and we'll try and tell you about it, but if you don't agree with the increased charges you can terminate the contract".

 

Now, that's very interesting. Which clause are you paraphrasing there?

[howartp]

Now, that's very interesting. Which clause are you paraphrasing there?

 

15.6 Unless stated to the contrary in the Agreement Summary or the Portal for Software and/or Services, ESS reserves the right to increase the Charges once each year to have effect from the first day of the next annual charging period by a percentage no more than: 2.5% plus the CPIH for the month ending 120 days before the first day of the next annual charging period (“Max Charge Increase”). For example, if the next annual charging period was 1st April 2022 then the CPIH percentage applied would be the CPIH percentage for November 2021. Where practicable, ESS will inform the Customer of such increase no less than 90 days before the first day of the next annual charging period. Furthermore, ESS retains the right to revise the Charges by more than the Max Charge Increase by giving written notice no less than 120 days before the end of the Initial Term and/or any Renewal Term, provided that ESS serves a valid notice of this change. If the Customer does not agree to the increase in the Charges, it may elect to terminate the Agreement in accordance with clause 16.2.

 

16.2 Either party may terminate this Agreement by giving at least 90 days written notice to the other party prior to the end of either the Initial Term or a Renewal Term, such notice to be effective from the end of either the Initial Term or a Renewal Term in which notice of termination is given.

 

As I type/paste this, I'm wondering - the Initial Term is 3 years so 16.2 on its own implies your termination is effective at the end of 3 years, but that doesn't make any sense if you're terminating due to increased charges 1/3rd into the contract.

[Seb1780]

I read 15.6 as:-

 

During the three year initial term we will increase prices at a maximum of 2.5%+CPIH

At the end of the initial term, or the end of a renewal term, we can give you 120 days notice of an increase greater than 2.5%+CPIH; if the customer wishes to do so they can terminate at this point.

 

There doesn't seems to be anything in here about get out early clauses :-(

[enjay]

I agree with your comment on 16.2, the initial term is 3 years and the renewal term is (presumably) 1 year, so that is when we will be able to terminate on 90 days notice.

 

15.6 is ambiguous to me. Can we terminate in response to the 2.5%+CPIH increase, or only if ESS increase it by more than this?

 

Anyone else think it laughable to have something they choose to call a Max Charge Increase if later in the same clause they give themselves permission to increase the charge by more than that?!

[paulkerton]

As I read it, the only get out in 15.6 is if they

• Increase above 2.5% and CPIH from the November before the anniversary of your renewal (as everyone is on April renewal) and don't give you at least 120 days notice
  
  • which by the way, is the amount they've given for the 3 year change
    

   

  [*]Increase of 2.5% and CPIH from the November before renewal (December 24 for April 25) and don't give you at least 90 days notice.

16.2 says you've got to give notice that you won't be renewing with more than 90 days left to go, else you're being renewed automatically. Which is what we've got now with the new three year term. So that get out will only apply By late December 2024 for April 2025.

 

So if you sign this deal,you've got it for three years unless they decide to charge more than 2.5% plus the CPIH in November 2024 (October 2021 was 3.8%, so the increase would, if it was based on October this year would be 6.6%)

Edited December 7, 2021 by paulkerton