ESS SIMS 3 Year Contracts

[enjay]

We got sent a lovely pdf from SIMS today regarding how nobody wants change, nobody wants anything new and that different things are full of fear

 

So does that mean the promised next gen platform will look the same as .Net? Because if not, change, unfamiliarity and re-training are coming our way whether we stay or leave.

[paulkerton]

I love marketing and sales spin.

 

"Lack of change means stagnant products", "Refusal to change shows poorunderstanding of users", "Limited vision slows down progress in schools".

 

"Stability of functionality", "rigorous change process, ensuring improving functionality meets customer needs and requests", "Established features and functionality that have a strong track record on supporting school improvement".

 

Two different groups talking about the same thing.

 

Not entirely sure I agree with it being just sales spin, though yes there is an element of that. We all know that monopolies are not healthy for markets and that SIMS has not progressed in any meaningful way in 15 years and competition does help with that. I think it's pretty clear that SIMS has also reinforced Microsoft's position of strength in schools too, meaning its been very hard to develop and move schools forward for the best part of the last 15 years outside of the SIMS/Microsoft team up monopoly.

 

It's also an argument about locking people into products because of the lack of development and change. ESS are well aware that stepping away from BETT 2019 and 2020 didn't look good, and now BETT 2022 is around the corner and they still don't have the product they first showed in 2018, because they've cancelled it isn't good. Putting a three year imposition on schools isn't just about the length of contract, it is about why they've decided to do this too.

Edited December 2, 2021 by paulkerton

[paulkerton]

So does that mean the promised next gen platform will look the same as .Net? Because if not, change, unfamiliarity and re-training are coming our way whether we stay or leave.

 

Their plan is to do it SIMS 6 - SIMS 7 style

Change it module by module so it doesn't feel like a sudden switch, but progresses slowly over the next 3 years or so.

Which inevitably means there will still be bits of the dBASE/Pascal coded SIMS still there in 5 years time. If it changes in the next 5 years at all!

[enjay]

Their plan is to do it SIMS 6 - SIMS 7 style

Which inevitably means there will still be bits of the dBASE/Pascal coded SIMS still there in 5 years time. If it changes in the next 5 years at all!

 

As long as we get to keep the Windows 95 UI in Nova and the print section of Exams Organiser, I'm happy :-)

[techie17]

We are most likely to change to another MIS for 15 months whilst the school moves to a MAT so that just leaves the finance database. Does anyone know of any cheapish finance systems for a year or so whist the primary school transitions to a MAT and would then move to PSF?

 

Does FMS stop working completely if we didn't renew?

Edited December 2, 2021 by techie17

[asteer]

Their plan is to do it SIMS 6 - SIMS 7 style

Change it module by module so it doesn't feel like a sudden switch, but progresses slowly over the next 3 years or so.

Which inevitably means there will still be bits of the dBASE/Pascal coded SIMS still there in 5 years time. If it changes in the next 5 years at all!

Capita did this with the Capita One system which is used as an education system in the LA. I did the first couple of years of the migration and it went okay, left halfway through but I think it still took another couple of years to do the migration

[jmak]

But only until August, when we'll almost certainly need the Summer 2022 update in order to import exam results. If we dodge that, we'll need Summer 2022 for staff workforce census. If we dodge both of those, we'll need Autumn 2022 for student census.

That's quite different to a hard 31st March deadline though. I'd definitely be trying to get on with making a decision and there will be a limit to how many new customers the other suppliers can onboard by March.

[DrCheese]

That's quite different to a hard 31st March deadline though. I'd definitely be trying to get on with making a decision and there will be a limit to how many new customers the other suppliers can onboard by March.

 

I wouldn't put it past them to find some "Serious Bug" 5 minutes after the 31st March deadline scare schools into signing back up. Cynic? Me? no....

[Ditto]

Would a serious bug at anytime be unusual?

[simpsonj]

Just to add, that if you're a hosted school with ScoMIS or similar, they legally can't continue to host your SIMS without a licence, so April 1st would be a hard cut off. Well, unless you spin up your own SIMS server, transfer the data and roll out Solus 3 for a few months...

[mavhc]

How do you change to a cloud product step by step, continuously sync the database, and also cope with different people updating their database versions at different times?

[supportman]

How do you change to a cloud product step by step, continuously sync the database, and also cope with different people updating their database versions at different times?

 

Absolutely no idea how they will do it, but to me its a terrible decision with way.

 

Re-writing in a modern web framework on-top fo scalable Azure of AWS seems the obvious choice with a "One Time" full migration path from local SQL.

 

Building yet more techincal debt on top of the Sims product with some hybrid solution is just crazy project management decision and reaks of non developer people getting involved

Edited December 3, 2021 by supportman

[enjay]

reaks of non developer people getting involved

 

Put it in The Cloud, man. Everything's in The Cloud now. The Cloud is great, it is everywhere and doesn't even need computers.

[paulkerton]

Put it in The Cloud, man. Everything's in The Cloud now. The Cloud is great, it is everywhere and doesn't even need computers.

 

OK, we get it King Canute, you like your servers on-site.

[enjay]

OK, we get it King Canute, you like your servers on-site.

 

You misunderstand me. I've nothing against cloud, quite the opposite in fact, my point was some people who don't know what they're talking about just think it is a simple solution to everything and doesn't require any work or maintenance. I think back to a teacher at my previous school who told me their laptop didn't work in car park. I said the wifi doesn't reach that far, and they replied with "I thought wifi was everywhere, isn't it just in the air?".

[Ditto]

Absolutely no idea how they will do it, but to me its a terrible decision with way.

 

Re-writing in a modern web framework on-top fo scalable Azure of AWS seems the obvious choice with a "One Time" full migration path from local SQL.

 

Building yet more techincal debt on top of the Sims product with some hybrid solution is just crazy project management decision and reaks of non developer people getting involved

Advanced Learning did incremental UI updates, so in the cloud and remaining there. One issue with this approach is that the incremental plan gets interrupted by other priorities. At one point, we had v1, v2 and v3 of the UI running in different parts of the system. In my role, using much more functionality than most, it still generally worked but it wasn't a great experience. For most teachers it was OK as the areas they used were consistent, but for year heads and other SLT, it did cause a few issues. This was mostly UI though, not client-server to cloud. Does anyone have any examples of an incremental change from client-server to cloud? For SIMS with al it's third party add-ons, I can only imagine that massively complicates life. A little bit of research reveals a few papers on the topic, from companies such as VMWare, AWS and IBM. Here's the IBM which is pitched at a not too technical level. That paper suggests one of four options at the out set

 

• Rehost - a.k.a. "Lift and Shift"
  
• Refactor or re-architect
  
• Replatform
  
• Retire/replace
  

 

an interesting read if this stuff floats your boat.

[Ditto]

Stepping back a little, I ask myself why the private equity backed firm bought ESS and what is their goal. Clearly profits are going to be key and that worries me. Given the action they have taken, the hard line, and the storm it has created, it doesn't appear they aren't taking steps to nurture their current customer base. You have to be concerned for the reduced number of schools that remain with the product as it'll be a smaller pool to prop up the profits. But I expect they have modelled it. Even if they retain just 50% of the market, that's still massive and a lot of income, and presumably fairly secure for the next 3 years.

 

I'm not sure if this has been asked, and it seems too obvious so I've probably missed it, but what is the notice period for the three year contract and what is the penalty to leave? I presume it's not still 3 months, otherwise everyone would just sign-up and give notice when they are ready.

[enjay]

In my role, using much more functionality than most, it still generally worked but it wasn't a great experience. For most teachers it was OK as the areas they used were consistent, but for year heads and other SLT, it did cause a few issues.

 

So, much like SIMS .Net then, with Nova, Exams and Options sitting outside the main application, and not linking in properly and/or requiring specific import-export processes. If you look at timetabling, for example, you create teachers in Nova and SIMS ensuring staff code matches, timetable when lessons happen in Nova, then add students to the classes in SIMS.

[ABR82]

So, much like SIMS .Net then, with Nova, Exams and Options sitting outside the main application, and not linking in properly and/or requiring specific import-export processes. If you look at timetabling, for example, you create teachers in Nova and SIMS ensuring staff code matches, timetable when lessons happen in Nova, then add students to the classes in SIMS.

 

 

I imagine they'll stick more new modules in the online bit (that we access through admin.sims.co.uk) where SIMS Activities, parent/student app, engagement portal (whatever that is) live and where you manually set all the user permissions for the users it has imported from SIMS (with their respective roles) for access to options online (which is a separate site). Which is all a bit clunky, doesn't sync too quickly with the rest of it, and definitely feels like a bunch of extra bits stuck on haphazardly rather than a thought through unified thing. Much of that doesn't come back into main SIMS - I've asked several times why SIMS activities can't write back onto the home/lesson monitor screens, but that apparently isn't possible. Presumably they intend to slowly add more and more bits onto that online that are semi-divorced from the rest of it, whilst those parts that are left in main SIMS slowly wither and die?

[enjay]

Presumably they intend to slowly add more and more bits onto that online that are semi-divorced from the rest of it, whilst those parts that are left in main SIMS slowly wither and die?

 

That's what I'm expecting too. Loosely-attached modules move online and either don't sync back or only do so daily, while ESS work on a totally new staff details bit and then get us a to do a one-time export of data into that, then do the same again for student details once they've got a viable alternative to Groupcall/Wonde working and a link back in from catering/admissions (unless of course they're only going to allow sync with Parent Pay Group products............)

[Jawloms]

Academies have the freedom to sign SLA's and contract with the provider of their choice, this includes your LA. Out MAT still has a number of SLA's with our LA.

Similarly, you can get your support from your preferred supplier; ESS, LA or other provider

 

Contacted the LA and they replied with;

 

Unfortunately we are unable to sell licences to academies, under the current agreement we can only resell licences to LA maintained schools.

 

Hurumph!

[DrCheese]

https://www.tes.com/news/exclusive-sims-legal-bid-considered-100s-schools

[Damon]

Yeah LA's resell to Maintained schools, not Academies. In that case you have to go directly to CAPITA as a single site and pay for a new license (when you first become an academy).

[Norphy]

We're selling SIMS.

Oh good, no-one can be worse than Capita

Hold my beer...

 

Hopefully, this legal action has some effect.

[Damon]

Stepping back a little, I ask myself why the private equity backed firm bought ESS and what is their goal. Clearly profits are going to be key and that worries me. Given the action they have taken, the hard line, and the storm it has created, it doesn't appear they aren't taking steps to nurture their current customer base. You have to be concerned for the reduced number of schools that remain with the product as it'll be a smaller pool to prop up the profits. But I expect they have modelled it. Even if they retain just 50% of the market, that's still massive and a lot of income, and presumably fairly secure for the next 3 years.

 

I'm not sure if this has been asked, and it seems too obvious so I've probably missed it, but what is the notice period for the three year contract and what is the penalty to leave? I presume it's not still 3 months, otherwise everyone would just sign-up and give notice when they are ready.

 

My understanding is that there is no notice period because the existing contract is being terminated. As a school, you are ending your contract with the LA and starting a new contract with ESS. However, your LA may choose to enter into a facilitating contract so they retain an element of administrative control and carry out the recharging.

 

So in essence, you should have until April to decide. The amount of spend on this contract is likely to trigger some entry level procurement controls so it's worth getting a couple of alternative quotes from MIS suppliers. Dare I say, you might want to get some demos too and properly explore the options!