DrCheese Posted June 30, 2021 Posted June 30, 2021 It probably couldn't work for all but I do believe there is an industry wide issue of poor financial management in education in the UK. It's really unfair to blame it on this. Schools have had their budgets cut to the bone over the past decade. If we had the funding we previously had between 2000/2010 then yes, we'd likely be ok. Your MAT was the exception, not the norm. 1
dmj Posted June 30, 2021 Posted June 30, 2021 Apple have done a good job with theARM implementation (albeit some improvements are needed). Could Windows 11 see the ARM take off in the PC world? I think this area is more difficult for Microsoft. The one (only?) reason we buy Windows, and it's number one selling point is because it is has fantastic backwards compatibility. Linux, macos or any other system doesn't come close to the way windows will allow legacy apps. And education always has a *lot* of legacy apps. I think the only way MS will be able to compete here is if they have a 100% compatibility layer for the legacy software. 1
FN-GM Posted June 30, 2021 Posted June 30, 2021 It's really unfair to blame it on this. Schools have had their budgets cut to the bone over the past decade. If we had the funding we previously had between 2000/2010 then yes, we'd likely be ok. Your MAT was the exception, not the norm. I did say I would draw a line under this but posting this to clarify. I am not blaming schools. There should be something in place so that people making fictional decisions are appropriate people who are trained. Now back over the line. [emoji846]
Norphy Posted June 30, 2021 Posted June 30, 2021 (edited) Back to the topic on hand. Apple have done a good job with theARM implementation (albeit some improvements are needed). Could Windows 11 see the ARM take off in the PC world? I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with Microsoft's Windows on ARM implementation, their x86 emulation layer is acceptable from what I hear and x64 is in preview. The difference, however, is that Apple control the entire stack with the Mac, starting from the design of the CPU upwards whereas Microsoft have to rely on third parties for their CPUs. It's telling that the Windows on ARM preview works better in virtualisation on an M1 based Mac than it does on real Windows hardware otherwise. ARM on the Mac has worked because the CPU is good enough to compete with or is better than what was there before. That isn't so with the Windows market. Realistically the only viable ARM CPU manufacturer is Qualcomm and they are so far behind Apple with their CPUs it isn't funny. This is what is hamstringing Windows on ARM, not Microsoft's coding. While there are other ARM CPU manufacturers, I don't see them in anything resembling a high end device either: Samsung don't seem especially interested outside of a bit of tarting about with Exynos, Mediatek CPUs perform worse than Qualcomm and while Huawei could be a viable competitor (god knows, they have the resources), their current dispute and sanctions with the US government count them out entirely. If someone steps up to the plate with a high performance ARM CPU good enough for a flagship device, I think we could see WoA taking off but until then? Nah. I did say I would draw a line under this but posting this to clarify. I am not blaming schools. There should be something in place so that people making fictional decisions are appropriate people who are trained. Now back over the line. [emoji846] At the risk of being frogged, I think a large part of the issue is that school leadership teams are primarily teachers, who often aren't trained in management or in the fields that they're looking after. I suspect that if schools brought in management expertise from outside of the education sector for more of their high roles, the running of schools would probably improve. Edited June 30, 2021 by Norphy 1
FN-GM Posted June 30, 2021 Posted June 30, 2021 I think this area is more difficult for Microsoft. The one (only?) reason we buy Windows, and it's number one selling point is because it is has fantastic backwards compatibility. Linux, macos or any other system doesn't come close to the way windows will allow legacy apps. And education always has a *lot* of legacy apps. I think the only way MS will be able to compete here is if they have a 100% compatibility layer for the legacy software. I would have thought the main reason people go for Windows is due to having the biggest compatible software library. If they can get these x86 based applications to work on ARM powered computers like Apple has with Rosetta 2 I think there is a real chance. One day (no idea when!) I can see the majority of apps being web based anyway so that will eliminate the required compatibility. Big developers such as Adobe will make their apps run native, this has been evidenced with the Apple transition.
FN-GM Posted June 30, 2021 Posted June 30, 2021 If someone steps up to the plate with a high performance ARM CPU good enough for a flagship device, I think we could see WoA taking off but until then? Nah. I hope this happens. I can't see it being Intel though. It seems like the "Kodak effect" is happening. They once had the market, slowly losing it by failing to adapt and that could mean their demise.
dmj Posted June 30, 2021 Posted June 30, 2021 I would have thought the main reason people go for Windows is due to having the biggest compatible software library.. yes - also known as backwards compatibility. Nobody in their right mind installs an operating system for the sake of it being an operating system, it's only as good as the applications it runs. If they can get these x86 based applications to work on ARM powered computers like Apple has with Rosetta 2 I think there is a real chance. One day (no idea when!) I can see the majority of apps being web based anyway so that will eliminate the required compatibility. Big developers such as Adobe will make their apps run native, this has been evidenced with the Apple transition. Webapps would be ideal, but *all* the manufacturers have a vested interest in discouraging this whilst paying lip service. If everything was going to go the way of html it would have happened by now. Apple can get manufacturers to transition their code to ARM as they can stop supporting x86_64, I'm not sure software manufacturers will be too impressed if microsoft try and increase their costs by demanding they hire porting teams to release in x86 *and* ARM together - developers are reluctant to release the same software in Linux/Macos which is comparatively simple compared to changing the entire architecture. That leaves a compatibility layer, which will be a performance drop.
Norphy Posted June 30, 2021 Posted June 30, 2021 (edited) I hope this happens. I can't see it being Intel though. It seems like the "Kodak effect" is happening. They once had the market, slowly losing it by failing to adapt and that could mean their demise. Intel used to own an ARM implementation. It was called StrongARM. They killed it off. I don't see them getting back into that market. It seems to be that if it isn't x86 or a derivative, they just don't know what to do with it. yes - also known as backwards compatibility. Nobody in their right mind installs an operating system for the sake of it being an operating system, it's only as good as the applications it runs. Webapps would be ideal, but *all* the manufacturers have a vested interest in discouraging this whilst paying lip service. If everything was going to go the way of html it would have happened by now. Apple can get manufacturers to transition their code to ARM as they can stop supporting x86_64, I'm not sure software manufacturers will be too impressed if microsoft try and increase their costs by demanding they hire porting teams to release in x86 *and* ARM together - developers are reluctant to release the same software in Linux/Macos which is comparatively simple compared to changing the entire architecture. That leaves a compatibility layer, which will be a performance drop. Apple can get their developers to develop for multiple architectures because their development tools make this relatively simple to do. Code something in Xcode using the correct language and it takes care of it for you. Microsoft are trying to do that as well with WPF but Win32 and .NET are far too embedded. Edited June 30, 2021 by Norphy
localzuk Posted June 30, 2021 Posted June 30, 2021 Apple can get their developers to develop for multiple architectures because their development tools make this relatively simple to do. Code something in Xcode using the correct language and it takes care of it for you. Microsoft are trying to do that as well with WPF but Win32 and .NET are far too embedded. WPF was just a new UI system tbh. Nothing overly ambitious. The key is .Net underneath it all. With their work on .Net Core over the last few years. They've now fully replaced .Net Framework with .Net Core as of version 5. It is cross platform and cross architecture. You can easily build software that will work on Windows, Mac, Linux, on top of X86, x64 and ARM.
dmj Posted June 30, 2021 Posted June 30, 2021 You can easily build software that will work on Windows, Mac, Linux, on top of X86, x64 and ARM. Because it can be done, doesn't mean it will be done. Porting architectures (and operating systems) ultimately costs developers money - even if it's click of a button easy they will still need automated testing setup for various platforms, usually it's going to take more than that (changing languages for example!). With many (educational)app developers, doing anything new is often a challenge. The danger Microsoft face with ARM, is it threatens their longstanding backwards compatibility and plethora of software model.
mavhc Posted June 30, 2021 Posted June 30, 2021 There's 2 types of apps, things that haven't been updated in 15 years, and cross platform apps, that's not going to change. It's in Microsoft's interest for 0 people to be running anything but the latest OS asap, having to support >1 OS increases costs. That's why Win10 was a free upgrade. Even with that 15% of Windows computers are running Win 7 still, Win 10 is only 80% No point panicking for at least a year
gmonks Posted June 30, 2021 Posted June 30, 2021 It will be interesting to see if Microsoft modify the requirements. We all saw what happened with Vista. Time will tell. I do think it's totally unreasonable to have a HD webcam though. I bought a brand new laptop for home use last year and this doesn't have a HD webcam, 1 year old device!
Rob_D Posted June 30, 2021 Posted June 30, 2021 How can MS enforce the webcam thing? It's not like windows can tell whether it's installed on a desktop or laptop.
supportman Posted June 30, 2021 Author Posted June 30, 2021 How can MS enforce the webcam thing? It's not like windows can tell whether it's installed on a desktop or laptop. They enforce it with a "certified for Windows 11" sticker on new machines, just like previous versions. It doesn't apply to current computers, only new ones sold. 1
Primus Posted June 30, 2021 Posted June 30, 2021 How can MS enforce the webcam thing? It's not like windows can tell whether it's installed on a desktop or laptop. Windows would be able to tell if it's on a laptop, there's a million different ways it will identify as a laptop - CPU version, power management and battery information etc. are all exposed to the OS.
Rob_D Posted June 30, 2021 Posted June 30, 2021 Windows would be able to tell if it's on a laptop, there's a million different ways it will identify as a laptop - CPU version, power management and battery information etc. are all exposed to the OS. I can put my desktop on a UPS and have it show up in windows like a laptop battery, and there are too many USFF devices that use laptop components for hardware ID to be consistent enough. supportman's idea seems far more likely. They enforce it with a "certified for Windows 11" sticker on new machines, just like previous versions. It doesn't apply to current computers, only new ones sold
Primus Posted June 30, 2021 Posted June 30, 2021 I can put my desktop on a UPS and have it show up in windows like a laptop battery, and there are too many USFF devices that use laptop components for hardware ID to be consistent enough. supportman's idea seems far more likely. Windows will know what kind of device it is running on, it will sample all of the hardware and the device will itself tell the OS what kind of device it is even this aside. Could you spoof it? Probably. 1
Steve21 Posted June 30, 2021 Posted June 30, 2021 Windows will know what kind of device it is running on, it will sample all of the hardware and the device will itself tell the OS what kind of device it is even this aside. Could you spoof it? Probably. It's included within the smbios enclosure type on the machines. https://www.dmtf.org/sites/default/files/standards/documents/DSP0134_3.2.0.pdf page 39 - table 17 if you're interested So for example 0Dh is an All-In-One while 03h is a standard desktop, so while yes spoofing is possible, in reality it wouldn't be for simple things like trying to bypass it in a school Steve 1
thimon Posted July 1, 2021 Posted July 1, 2021 With a little registry tweaking got the Win 10 start menu back, looks really nice with the Win 11 theme. Couldn't get the new Win 11 json file start menu customisation working, will revisit it another time.
Jawloms Posted July 2, 2021 Posted July 2, 2021 Microsoft’s Windows 11 blue screen of death to become black
Norphy Posted July 2, 2021 Posted July 2, 2021 The crash screen is usually a different colour on preview versions of Windows.
mavhc Posted July 2, 2021 Posted July 2, 2021 "News" articles that are just reposting tweets I got a green screen of death, shall I call CNN? 1
flyinghaggis Posted July 3, 2021 Posted July 3, 2021 (edited) Apple have done a good job with theARM implementation (albeit some improvements are needed). Could Windows 11 see the ARM take off in the PC world? Yeah, I'm starting to feel that ARM will become a big part of the Windows 11 push. I get the impression that Microsoft is keen to break the Chromebook/iPad duopoly that's starting to form in educational BYOD. Lower cost ARM based Windows laptops with better performance, manageability and battery life than current x86 models could be a game changer. We've already seen proof of concept of Windows 11 running on a raspberry pi. Imagine if you could combine the cost of that with performance to match current low end x86 devices. Equally, in a world where most people only use a browser 99% of the time I'm not convinced that legacy app support is even a major restriction any more. Especially if MS can implement decent x66 emulation. Curious to see whether x86 remains the dominant Windows platform a few years from now? Edited July 3, 2021 by flyinghaggis 1
LeMarchand Posted July 3, 2021 Posted July 3, 2021 We've already seen proof of concept of Windows 11 running on a raspberry pi. ,,,and on a 950XL! 1
mavhc Posted July 4, 2021 Posted July 4, 2021 https://www.androidauthority.com/qualcomm-nuvia-explained-1192441/
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