ESS SIMS 3 Year Contracts

[GeekyPete]

We are a MAT of 6 School. All on SIMS. We have been planning on running a procurement for a new MIS for a while as SIMS is increasingly falling behind what is required. Our first response was "well that's sped things up!", then talking to the Very high ups we got a "hold your Horses!!" response, "Half our schools are overdue ofsted inspections, there's no way we want to be bedding in a new MIS in the middle of inspections". The one that it has done is cemented our resolve that whoever the next MIS supplier is, it will NOT be SIMS.

[vikpaw]

We are a MAT of 6 School. All on SIMS. We have been planning on running a procurement for a new MIS for a while as SIMS is increasingly falling behind what is required. Our first response was "well that's sped things up!", then talking to the Very high ups we got a "hold your Horses!!" response, "Half our schools are overdue ofsted inspections, there's no way we want to be bedding in a new MIS in the middle of inspections". The one that it has done is cemented our resolve that whoever the next MIS supplier is, it will NOT be SIMS.

Unless they win a fairly conducted tender process

[paulkerton]

Unless they win a fairly conducted tender process

 

Hold on... What's that up ahead? A flying pig?!

[localzuk]

We are a MAT of 6 School. All on SIMS. We have been planning on running a procurement for a new MIS for a while as SIMS is increasingly falling behind what is required. Our first response was "well that's sped things up!", then talking to the Very high ups we got a "hold your Horses!!" response, "Half our schools are overdue ofsted inspections, there's no way we want to be bedding in a new MIS in the middle of inspections". The one that it has done is cemented our resolve that whoever the next MIS supplier is, it will NOT be SIMS.

Only problem with that is, all schools are due inspections. Being inspected shouldn't stop you dealing with your financial obligations regarding contracting/tendering...

[paulkerton]

Only problem with that is, all schools are due inspections. Being inspected shouldn't stop you dealing with your financial obligations regarding contracting/tendering...

This. Absolutely this.

Moving MIS shouldn't be dependent on inspections, else it will never happen.

Especially in a 6 to 10 school MAT, as mathematically you'll always have an inspection coming up and nothing would ever get done.

[Damon]

I have to say what a fantastic read this thread is. I'm 90+% in-line with most of what has been said, but I wanted to note a slightly different perspective. Most of us here are tech savvy, a good number of us data protection savvy and clearly a significant number also business savvy. But, invariably the decision makers, the likes of 'educational sector only' experienced heads and SLT don't have the collective knowledge we have. Some of those decision makers are smart enough to take the expert advice beyond their knowledge, but as too many of us know, plenty aren't. Larger MATS perhaps have don't have this issue to the same degree and I believe @bringmoredata has shown that MATs are more likely to churn from SIMS. Having worked with four MIS operationally, and working very closely with SLT, SBMs and heads in parallel, along with approaching 8 years of school governance, I believe I have a broad perspective.

Something that I don't think has been considered, is there are a significant number of schools sufficiently happy with SIMS as-is, that they would have most likely renewed for the next three years anyway. As an example, my governance school is part of growing primary only MAT. It's still in single figures and unlikely to change from that in 3 years. As a governor I raised the idea at looking at SIMS alternatives; it was a non-runner. Firstly, the original SBM used to say when questioned on this after we acadamised, 'Don't want to through the baby out with the bath water'. The same was true when we joined the parent trust. Ultimately, the SBM was anti-change and feared it. As a governor, it's a little tricky keeping the topic strategic, and non-operational. But it was 100% clear nothing would change. The SBM is now retired and the trust moved the role centrally so we don't have one now. I have touched on the topic at trust level, but no appetite for change currently there either. The bottom line is they use the product so lightly, they just don't need to change and obviously feel the expense is OK. I also believe their focus is very much on other priorities. I still disagree with them and I will use this hot potato to once again try to get them to open the eyes to other products.

In terms of PR, ESS could not have got it more wrong! I believe the pressure will mount to a degree they will backdown and 1 year renewals will be available, but the reputational damage will have been done. How much better would the PR be if ESS said, 'Hey, here's a discounted rate if you renew for a three year period. We're looking for the commitment to help fund massive investment programme to improve the product you currently use, including moving to a cloud based MIS'. I suspect the current approach will cost them dearly, but it might only show up in 3 or 4 years when they fail to match the current cloud market, but a lot more decision makers will become more aware of the competition due to the heat created by the current underhand approach.

Absolutely, I think there are a large number of schools that will barely even register this as a contractual issue or read the emails in the first place. Agreed that the PR damage has been done, but how many people will remember it in three years if they manage to improve the product somewhat? I think ESS made a calculated risk here and probably estimated that the carrot approach wasn't going to work. I think the disappointing thing is how anti-competitive this is. Of course ESS have a great incentive to do this but schools are getting the raw end of the deal in terms of choice.

[localzuk]

I think one thing that MATs need to remember - if the total value of a contract is over a certain amount, their hands are tied regarding having to run a procurement exercise. You can't just "oh we don't want to" about it.

[howartp]

To anyone looking at G Cloud - be very careful with how you do it. Make sure you read the accompanying documentation on how to use G Cloud 12 - ie. you are not allowed to run mini competitions, ask for quotes/special pricing etc... The prices listed are the prices applicable. You can ask for clarifications and demos, but you must be fair to all suppliers you long and short list etc...

 

That's a fair point, but can I ask in general. (And no, I haven't yet read the documentation...)

 

I'm familiar with say a photocopier/MFD CPC procurement where there's 6 suppliers and you have to send them the same documentation then award using whatever criteria you stated (including Most Economically Advantageous).

 

I'm also aware of pre-tendered frameworks where we can go to NYCC and place an order with whoever won the pre-tender.

 

GCloud doesn't have small lots, it has about ~400 suppliers on the "cloud software" lot. Does that mean we could just pick randomly whichever supplier we want, without any conversation, demo or interaction with them, and send them a PO using the pricing on the framework? We can't send a tender/procurement invite to 400 suppliers surely?

[Ditto]

I think you're also under-estimating the number of schools who aren't necessarily happy with SIMS, but either know no better or do not have the confidence to switch and have members of SLTs who are change averse.

 

Or perhaps have a lot of support from a former LEA IT Unit that are all-in on SIMS, so will FUD scare them from changing or even looking at changing.

Which is ultimately why they've scrapped SIMS 8 in favour of this "recreate what they know" attempt.

Oh, I doubt I did . In all seriousness I entirely agree with you. I guess with over 2/3rds of the market, there's room for significant numbers in both pots. I do wonder if the former pot is more the case with primary and the pot you rightly mention is the case with secondary. Either way, with the latest procurement news, has there ever been a hotter week in the MIS market?

[localzuk]

GCloud doesn't have small lots, it has about ~400 suppliers on the "cloud software" lot. Does that mean we could just pick randomly whichever supplier we want, without any conversation, demo or interaction with them, and send them a PO using the pricing on the framework? We can't send a tender/procurement invite to 400 suppliers surely?

There's a process outlined in the documentation. You use the marketplace search engine to make a long list, then from that make a shortlist. You aren't sending tenders or procurement invites at all. Prices are listed on each supplier's page, and you use that pricing. You aren't allowed to do a request for quote or tender exercise under G Cloud 12.

[Ditto]

There's a process outlined in the documentation. You use the marketplace search engine to make a long list, then from that make a shortlist. You aren't sending tenders or procurement invites at all. Prices are listed on each supplier's page, and you use that pricing. You aren't allowed to do a request for quote or tender exercise under G Cloud 12.

Does it include the migration, or can that part but be tendered independently?

Edited November 22, 2021 by Ditto

[localzuk]

Does include the migration of can that but be rendered independently?

Sorry, are you asking if the pricing includes details for migration costs? From what I've seen, yes, it does.

[Damon]

I think one thing that MATs need to remember - if the total value of a contract is over a certain amount, their hands are tied regarding having to run a procurement exercise. You can't just "oh we don't want to" about it.

 

I think tenders are often seen as a PITA and I totally get that but at least it means that due diligence is done on a major decision for the Trust. Regardless of whether that's for an MIS, catering supplier and so on, it's something you'd want to demonstrate to all stakeholders that you're making the most informed decision for the group.

[ABR82]

rather than just one module, it needs to be the whole MIS if it's going to be a coherent system.

It needs a full ground up re-write. I'd want to treat it like a switch to a new MIS, you port the data over to new system for testing, and then do a top up of data when you're ready to go live. The destination system needs to be fully working and ready with all modules. I don't think we're going to see this.

 

The more you use SIMS, the more you can see where bits of a different program have been shoved in. They aren't integrated in any meaningful way, they're just accessible from a menu item within SIMS. It's painfully obvious when they can't even match the UI. Look at intouch or options online. Both useful, but in terms of integrating with the rest of SIMS, they just don't. Likewise if you look at Exams, or indeed Course Manager. There are places where bits of functionality seem duplicated, but unlinked. Some 3rd party software feels like it does a better job of interacting with different bits of SIMS than some of the modules within SIMS does.

 

A single new system where everything is there and works from the off, and nothing feels like a badly tacked on afterthought is what is required. To be fair to Capita, SIMS 8 looked decent in that regard from the Demos they showed, although presumably it didn't work that great in actual usage, but it showed that in many ways they understood what they needed to produce. Binning it and thinking that the future is the same aged, bodged and clunky product that has been bleeding market share for years doesn't give you much hope for the future direction.

 

The only reasons for choosing SIMS are that everyone uses it, so everyone has some knowledge of how to use it (to a certain extent), and also that most people do not like and are afraid of change. The large installed userbase means that other software has to be compatible with it. It does what is required. Other than that, there isn't much. The range of other applications adding functionality on to SIMS or providing different or more functional front ends is perhaps indicative of it's shortcomings.

[LeMarchand]

Schools Week has this article that mentions it - https://schoolsweek.co.uk/schools-told-to-hold-off-on-three-year-mis-contract/

 

The Register's article mentions this very thread: https://www.theregister.com/2021/11/19/department_for_education_ess_delay/

[Ditto]

Sorry, are you asking if the pricing includes details for migration costs? From what I've seen, yes, it does.

 

I was, thank you! I've now edited the post to resemble something like proper English .

[lewisburgess]

Hi, apologies if someone's already asked this...

 

Has anyone done a comparison (matrix) of the main features between SIMS/Arbor/Bromcom etc that they'd be willing to share?

 

Saves reinventing the wheel.

[howartp]

Hi, apologies if someone's already asked this...

 

Has anyone done a comparison (matrix) of the main features between SIMS/Arbor/Bromcom etc that they'd be willing to share?

 

Saves reinventing the wheel.

 

Great question.

 

I was going to post a new thread but I might as well put it here. (Unless mods want to tidy up some of this whole thread into different posts/sections?)

 

For those who find videos and reading support documentation useful in evaluating what the salesman/demo/trainer doesn't tell you, the following links may be useful. (Arbor is easy to find; I couldn't find Bromcom until I got a direct link from another post yesterday)

 

https://support.arbor-education.com/hc/en-us/articles/360007105434-Full-list-of-our-videos

https://docs.bromcom.com/training/recent-webinars/

https://docs.bromcom.com/

 

If anyone knows similar for iSAMS or Advanced, please let me know and i'll add to this post.

[supportman]

A couple of things Bromcom has that Sims didnt (at least when we looked).

 

- A2c exams integration

- Office 365 user provisioning

- Google or O365 Single Sign on

- Student, Parent and teacher iPhone and Android apps

- Groups and Clubs

- Integrated cashless system

- Integrated comms

- Vision-X (data reporting for mutiple schools)

- Desktop Alert system

- Open Data API with Support for PowerBi

- Staff performance management

 

I'm sure there is a lot more but those ones come to mind.

Edited November 23, 2021 by supportman

[paulkerton]

A couple of things Bromcom has that Sims didnt (at least when we looked).

 

- A2c exams integration

- Office 365 user provisioning

- Google or O365 Single Sign on

- Student, Parent and teacher iPhone and Android apps

- Groups and Clubs

- Integrated cashless system

- Integrated comms

- Vision-X (data reporting for mutiple schools)

- Desktop Alert system

- Open Data API with Support for PowerBi

- Staff performance management

 

I'm sure there is a lot more but those ones come to mind.

 

Not only does Bromcom have Office 365 user provisioning but it has:

* Google Workspace User Provisioning

* Google Workspace and Office 365 Calendar Sync

* Google Workspace and Office 365 Group Sync

* Google Classroom and Google Teams Classroom Sync

[lewisburgess]

I guess I'm interested in what Arbor etc doesn't do compared to SIMS; Or perhaps doesn't do very well.

 

I'm not too worried about things like student/staff data at this stage because that's so basic and bread and butter... Thinking more like timetable, options, reporting (as in student reports/profiles/assessment), exams, etc. The peripheral parts of SIMS particularly (e.g. Nova-T, exams, Online Options).

 

I've already asked Salamander, Wonde, Groupcall, ParentPay etc what MIS systems they support - looks like pretty much all the 3rd party stuff we use will work with the main MIS competitors.

[StampStudy]

Some have asked and I have just received a reply that they refuse to change to a 1 year contract. Stating "... no exceptions made"

[mthomas08]

We will refuse to sign - our finance have replied wanting a 1 year. If EES don't want a 1 year deal - we will leave.

 

This is now on our governors radar and could lead to a bigger discussion regarding EES. HTs are now getting emails regarding this approach and to hold fire. Apparently the DFE is now involved.

 

https://schoolsweek.co.uk/schools-told-to-hold-off-on-three-year-mis-contract/?utm_campaign=National%20SIMS%20Renewal%20Campaign&utm_medium=email&_hsmi=186915426&_hsenc=p2ANqtz-9U16-OsCisb0rlh134HpJAmZJMKIp7G7U62ysJOZncXgaJLBoQ-pZEwkrbNV55l6ZGUECH0-oGfuQdHb7vnsl6z8dXS9g6tSqdI5rjf3koLw_HVVY&utm_content=186915426&utm_source=hs_email

 

*edit*

I'll ask our HT if she can make a direct complaint herself to the DFE about this and maybe discuss it with other schools in her HT meetings. Maybe a fuss needs to be kicked up.

Edited November 25, 2021 by mthomas08

[enjay]

Some have asked and I have just received a reply that they refuse to change to a 1 year contract. Stating "... no exceptions made"

 

Yet according to the latest marketing email from Arbor "We understand from public sources that schools who have pushed back have managed to get 1 year extensions". Are any of those schools represented on this forum?!

[Norphy]

Some have asked and I have just received a reply that they refuse to change to a 1 year contract. Stating "... no exceptions made"

 

To which your response should be "Well, OK, don't let the door hit you on the ar5e on your way out"

Edited November 25, 2021 by vikpaw