ESS SIMS 3 Year Contracts

[jmak]

@AdminAssistant

 

I think the two posts above mine give you the answer: SIMS FMS is a separate product to SIMS MIS, but they can be and usually are linked.

 

You'd need to talk to other providers about whether they can feed in directly or produce exports than can be imported, but I think what most schools do when the finance department insist on keeping SIMS FMS is run it completely separately and just enter the required data.

 

Have the finance team in your school actively compared the available systems and found quantifiable reasons why there's nothing else suitable? In light of the change in renewal terms I think that they need to look again to be certain they are obtaining best value.

[synaesthesia]

Indeed, how bad can it be that FMS, a product lifted from, and still firmly planted in the 1990s, is a "preferred product"? Sounds like the SBM in that instance is more scared of the idea change than the problems they believe it could cause. This is very much why it's a decision process that can't be led by one person; it must be a group of involved people. The vast majority of intelligent and/or people not resistant to change for (insert reason here) would be relishing the opportunity to ditch that.

[supportman]

From the CEO of Arbors post about this:

 

1. You do not have to accept 3 year terms - We understand from public sources that schools who have pushed back have managed to get 1 year extensions, and you should do the same. We also think SIMS is legally not allowed to force this change on you.

 

2. A 3 year extension counts as a material change of your MIS contract. This means you should get 3 quotes to be compliant with DfE procurement advice. You can get quotes in less than a day using a Framework like G-Cloud 12 or Everything ICT – all the MIS suppliers on them have already been through a competitive tender process, and the Frameworks are designed to help you find value for money

 

https://www.linkedin.com/posts/jamesweatherill_options-for-your-upcoming-3-year-sims-renewal-activity-6866344255334428672-jeAT

[JamesWeatherill]

@AdminAssistant

 

I think the two posts above mine give you the answer: SIMS FMS is a separate product to SIMS MIS, but they can be and usually are linked.

 

You'd need to talk to other providers about whether they can feed in directly or produce exports than can be imported, but I think what most schools do when the finance department insist on keeping SIMS FMS is run it completely separately and just enter the required data.

 

Have the finance team in your school actively compared the available systems and found quantifiable reasons why there's nothing else suitable? In light of the change in renewal terms I think that they need to look again to be certain they are obtaining best value.

 

It's James (CEO Arbor) again! Just to clarify, your MIS system doesn't need to talk to FMS - most of our schools use FMS and run it alongside Arbor. As others have mentioned, you should see if FMS is tied into your 3 year renewal, and if it is then use it as an opportunity to look around to comply with procurement guidance. There are lots of good alternative finance systems out there (that are also cloud-based) like Access Education Finance etc and switching isn't as hard as you think.

 

If you want to see what your options are as a school regarding renewal then read my blog here which provides a quick overview, or The Key have produced a helpful guide on how to procure your MIS here

[localzuk]

The main reason people use both SIMS and FMS is that the 2 link together for personnel stuff - ie. salaries and the like are automatically pulled into FMS from SIMS. I believe there's some forecasting stuff for it too. But it isn't a necessity, just a nice to have.

[FragglePete]

Just been speaking to my SBM this morning. She got notification from The Key (https://schoolleaders.thekeysupport.com/) that they are looking at this situation and asking questions to SBM and School Leaders on their feeling on this.

 

Pete

[DDraper]

Hi All, Been watching this thread as it's been interesting with some of our customers/potential customers telling us about this. (Product Manager for IRIS Ed:Gen MIS). It's been great to see other MIS teams and support partners really go for this. It really has seemed to devalue the progress made during the last two years forced or not. The point all the cloud MIS are trying to make is we are already there with the basics of being cloud based while they are still playing catch up (poorly) and we are all now progressing to the next big thing.

Fingers crossed schools will see through this and not listen to "Because they are not / can't / can't decide / insert excuse here".

Edited November 17, 2021 by vikpaw
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[BKGarry]

The Key have released an article about this for anyone interested.

 

https://schoolleaders.thekeysupport.com/administration-and-management/financial-management/procurement-and-payment/renewing-mis-contracts-your-rights-and-responsibilities/?campaignkw=sl-share-article

[enjay]

When we tendered for 4 different systems (Sims, Bromcom, Arbour and iSams) it took about 3 months from first email to getting a new system.

 

The quotes and demos were relatively quick from memory, we did them all in about 2 weeks. Good to keep each one fresh in the mind.

 

Actual migration was very quick and we had a test system up and running in about 10 days from sending out Sims data off. We ran both together for 6 months after that.

 

That was just one school though. 1st April is 4.5 months from now, and your single migration took 3 months. Can the other MIS providers cope with migrating the volume of schools who are going to be jumping ship from SIMS between now and April? Are their platforms stable and scalable enough to accommodate the extra data and traffic? These are questions we should be asking of any prospective MIS providers we speak to about migration.

[enjay]

I think @localzuk was suggesting he could give notice now and then have 4 months to implement the repalcement. Brave to cancel without a replacement though.

 

So include SIMS in the tender, then if selected you cancel the cancellation. Obviously check with them first this is an option, but I'd be very surprised if they say no.

 

Another option is to renew for 3 years then start a proper tender process for migration perhaps by September 2023, and just take the hit of paying for SIMS and not using it.

[DDraper]

That was just one school though. 1st April is 4.5 months from now, and your single migration took 3 months. Can the other MIS providers cope with migrating the volume of schools who are going to be jumping ship from SIMS between now and April? Are their platforms stable and scalable enough to accommodate the extra data and traffic? These are questions we should be asking of any prospective MIS providers we speak to about migration.

 

I think most will be ready to cope - we certainly are.

[enjay]

I think most will be ready to cope - we certainly are.

 

Probably true, and those who aren't ready have 4 months to get ready, funded by the 3-year commitments the schools are signing. It is a question which should be included in in our due diligence nonetheless (if only so we have some recourse against you should it transpire you're not coping!)

[supportman]

That was just one school though. 1st April is 4.5 months from now, and your single migration took 3 months. Can the other MIS providers cope with migrating the volume of schools who are going to be jumping ship from SIMS between now and April? Are their platforms stable and scalable enough to accommodate the extra data and traffic? These are questions we should be asking of any prospective MIS providers we speak to about migration.

 

Good points, I think our actual data migration took about 48hrs. The rest was just waiting for us to setup users ect.

I honestly dont think its an issue.

 

The hardest part is just getting everyone on board for the move. Its a lot less hassle actually doing the technical stuff

 

 

Once the system was in place, everyone forgot how scary it was and just got on with it...

Edited November 18, 2021 by supportman

[mavhc]

Rumour has it they'll pretend it was all a big misunderstanding tomorrow, you know, to increase trust in the brand.

[enjay]

The hardest part is just getting everyone on board for the move. Its a lot less hassle actually doing the technical stuff

 

100%! Most of our staff never actually use SIMS as we have Go4Schools, so there's a relatively small number of people who would be affected. They are key staff though - admissions (although we've just bought Admissions+), timetabling, attendance.

[vikpaw]

Is anyone actually considering changing MIS / tendering because of this, or is the action more towards trying to negotiate the terms?

 

It's really refreshing to see so many people talking of changing MIS and doing it in such a tight time frame, however, the reality is that the senior leadership and other stakeholders need to get on board - I don't see that being an easy / quick decision.

[enjay]

Is anyone actually considering changing MIS / tendering because of this, or is the action more towards trying to negotiate the terms?

 

It's really refreshing to see so many people talking of changing MIS and doing it in such a tight time frame, however, the reality is that the senior leadership and other stakeholders need to get on board - I don't see that being an easy / quick decision.

 

I'm not sure we have a choice. Our purchasing procedures require us to tender purchases of that value. We don't have to take the cheapest, but we do have to justify a more expensive option and I don't think "we like SIMS" or "people don't want to change" are acceptable justifications for a significantly higher cost. We should also bear in mind the "next gen" product from ESS might look totally different anyway, so change is coming for our users regardless.

[mavhc]

Don't worry, their next gen version is still just RDP, but this time it's HTML! So their next gen is from 2 Windows Server releases ago? And using brand new HTML 5 technology, from 2010 https://www.infoq.com/news/2010/07/html5-novnc/

[bobsmith]

100% I'm now considering the move away because of this.

 

I don't think I'd be doing my job if I didn't raise this rather than sleep-walking into a 3 year commitment to a product (particularly one which has been aggravating to use for the entire time i've used it).

 

In terms of costs saved - during lockdown we had to spend a small fortune installing and licencing RDP servers to allow all of our staff to work remotely. We also have to ask our IT support company to run patches and upgrades out of hours.

 

An integrated true cloud system would be an obvious consideration.

 

In the immediate future the major issue for me is either negotiating a one year extension to give us breathing room to evaluate the competition and then make a decision and then do the move - OR - do all of that without an extension and possibly lose my sanity in doing so.

[Primus]

Has anyone managed to get a 1 year contract rather than 3 - I've noticed several companies saying they've heard schools have but I don't know of any that have.

[TechMonkey]

The hardest part is just getting everyone on board for the move. Its a lot less hassle actually doing the technical stuff

Once the system was in place, everyone forgot how scary it was and just got on with it...

 

I found staff were actually happy and very receptive as the system was so much better, more intuitive and less hassle. Take it slow, show them the parts they need now and build on it.

[enjay]

Has anyone managed to get a 1 year contract rather than 3 - I've noticed several companies saying they've heard schools have but I don't know of any that have.

 

I don't see what ESS would gain from agreeing to that. If you want a 1 year not 3 year, it is because you're wanting to leave but I'm sure many schools faced with having to migrate in 4 months will instead sign for three year with the intention of re-evaluating at the end. By the time that happens, ESS (think they) will have bought time with their clunky RDP/web version and superseded it with a new "proper" online version and schools will love them again.

[garbage46]

Does anyone have a phone number I can call to complain and request a one year renewal?

[DrCheese]

I don't see what ESS would gain from agreeing to that. If you want a 1 year not 3 year, it is because you're wanting to leave but I'm sure many schools faced with having to migrate in 4 months will instead sign for three year with the intention of re-evaluating at the end. By the time that happens, ESS (think they) will have bought time with their clunky RDP/web version and superseded it with a new "proper" online version and schools will love them again.

 

That's their plan - Tie you up now, give themselves 3 years of breathing room for "The future" and then they're hoping that you'd have forgot all about this (or have moved on) or love the "new" system by then. That it stops their competition stone dead from expanding is a nice cherry on top (This is why this is market abuse)

[localzuk]

Does anyone have a phone number I can call to complain and request a one year renewal?

No, you have to go into the ESS renewals portal, click on your school, then follow the process until the option to talk to someone about the contract appears. You then send a message to them and they'll call you.