ESS SIMS 3 Year Contracts

[localzuk]

How can you do a tendering process at this stage? There's not enough time to properly evaluate the competitors etc and go through a whole tendering process and potentially go to an alternative if you weren't expecting this? Impossible. So the tendering process is moot cos we're going to have to renew! But frankly them doing this encourages one to look for an alternative MIS in 3 years time as this is disgraceful conduct. And I'm happy to sit with what i know (ie sims) but this actually makes me want to go. Absolute t0$$3rs

Well, theoretically, we'd have until April 1st to go to tender, analyse the bids, choose someone, implement/migrate and train everyone. It's a heck of a compressed timetable but I've seen worse.

[PrimaryNetMan]

Some cloud MIS providers already have join now start pay at the end of your current SIMS agreement. I can see these being extended to secure new long term customers.

[fiza]

Hi Everyone,

 

Just wanted to give a heads-up that our annual entitlement statement came through for one of my schools this morning and noticed they are trying to force everyone on to three year contract terms. The exact wording they use:

 

 

 

I have sent them a message through the renewals portal and also emailed them directly to say we only want to renew for 1 year as we are planning to move to a new MIS soon.

 

Just wanted to give everyone a heads-up and you might want to warn your business managers, etc. in case someone just clicks blindly through the renewal or, I suspect if the renewal form isn't completed they would just automatically move everyone to 3 year terms.

 

I have to say when I saw they were taken over by ParentPay my hopes were pretty low but this is clearly just a way to force schools that are likely looking elsewhere to stay while they try to catch up.

 

David

 

Thanks for highlighting this. Our SLT were just about to sign the renewal when I pointed the new term out. Sneakily put right at the bottom of the renewal notice!

 

Did you get any response from them yet? Which email address did you write to as the renewal notice does not have any email contact details on it.

[supportman]

When we tendered for 4 different systems (Sims, Bromcom, Arbour and iSams) it took about 3 months from first email to getting a new system.

 

The quotes and demos were relatively quick from memory, we did them all in about 2 weeks. Good to keep each one fresh in the mind.

 

Actual migration was very quick and we had a test system up and running in about 10 days from sending out Sims data off. We ran both together for 6 months after that.

[coolhands]

Well, theoretically, we'd have until April 1st to go to tender, analyse the bids, choose someone, implement/migrate and train everyone. It's a heck of a compressed timetable but I've seen worse.

I assumed it would be 31st December same as with their enhanced support agreement? In fact while writing this I just checked the terms and conditions:

 

16.2 Either party may terminate this Agreement by giving at least 90 days written notice to the other party prior to the end of either the Initial Term or a Renewal Term, such notice to be effective from the end of either the Initial Term or a Renewal Term in which notice of termination is given.

so 90 days prior to 1st April is 31st December, same as if you want to leave the support agreement. Just a heads-up

[PrimaryNetMan]

I think @localzuk was suggesting he could give notice now and then have 4 months to implement the repalcement. Brave to cancel without a replacement though.

[Theblacksheep]

Crown Commercial Services framework purchase is possible for an MIS and an alternative to a tender process.

 

The availability of some providers to deliver a migration could be a limiting factor, the nice friendly window of february half term will get filled quickly.

Edited November 11, 2021 by Theblacksheep

[coolhands]

yeah I see. But exactly- who could risk handing notice in now when you haven't yet had a chance to properly investigate the alternatives, it would be too rushed.

[supportman]

I think @localzuk was suggesting he could give notice now and then have 4 months to implement the repalcement. Brave to cancel without a replacement though.

 

Not really as your Sims continues to work as before, just without updates.

 

Cancelling is relatively risk free if you know you want to move.

Edited November 11, 2021 by supportman

[localzuk]

Crown Commercial Services framework purchase is possible for an MIS and an alternative to a tender process.

The availability of some providers to deliver a migration could be a limiting factor, the nice friendly window of february half term will get filled quickly.

Do you have details of the agreement there? I had a look and couldn't find an MIS framework on their site.

[Primus]

Do you have details of the agreement there? I had a look and couldn't find an MIS framework on their site.

 

Try CCS G-Cloud 12

[PrimaryNetMan]

Do you have details of the agreement there? I had a look and couldn't find an MIS framework on their site.

 

https://www.crowncommercial.gov.uk/agreements/RM1557.12

[localzuk]

Try CCS G-Cloud 12

Thanks. Interestingly... ESS are not on there that I can see.

[Theblacksheep]

Thanks. Interestingly... ESS are not on there that I can see.

 

They are not, I don't think they meet the cloud service standard.

 

Arbor Primary

 

Arbor Secondary

 

Arbor MAT

 

Bromcom Primary

 

Bromcom Secondary

 

Bromcom MAT

 

Other MIS vendors are available.

[Boredguy]

Well you can't really class SIMS as a cloud service, even with their RDP session

[Theblacksheep]

Well you can't really class SIMS as a cloud service, even with their RDP session

 

Shame that RDS doesn't count eh

[localzuk]

I found them in the end - https://www.digitalmarketplace.service.gov.uk/g-cloud/services/977816951758560

[DavidYoung]

Had my meeting with ESS. No movement on the 3 year renewals policy as ParentPay have invested £40m and there are great things coming. They said how much better SIMS Connected would be over Hosted and they were going to be slicing SIMS up and moving each slice to proper cloud over the coming years.

 

They made a big deal about how many schools had left then come back to SIMS, and how disruptive it was to move MISs.

 

Also made the mistake of asking my opinion on ParentPay which I gave (spoiler, not good).

 

I am looking into frameworks and have browsed G-Cloud but have also found this: https://www.kcs4ps.co.uk/education-management-systems which seems like it might be easier to use and we also use KCS for the MFD framework.

[DrCheese]

Yes I had the same call with them today -

No movement on the 3 year thing. They say that "It's the same with all MIS now" - Yes, but the difference is you go into that with your eyes wide open. This is being thrown at us with just 2 months notice before our renewal.

Lots of promises for the future, but we've heard all that before. You never ever buy a product based on what they *may* add on the future - If the future is so great & not far away, then why were they hiding from BETT?

Said about Parentpay/schoolcomms, to which my reply was they have equally been ignored for years. ParentPay *STILL* can't automatically sync in staff.

 

It's clear they're worried about the competition & they're trying to give themselves some breathing room to develop the new version by forcefully keeping their existing customers on board in the meantime. They're banking on you forgetting how angry you are now by the time your next renewal comes round.

 

For me I'm stuffed even if I wanted to go out to tender now - 2 months notice *over christmas* is just not enough.

If they had done "From end of 2022 our policy will now be X" that would have been fair enough for most people (I believe?) & long enough notice before locking people in.

 

This isn't.

Edited November 11, 2021 by DrCheese

[DavidYoung]

They say that "It's the same with all MIS now"

 

Oh yeah, that too. What I should have mentioned is that if you procure via G-Cloud, the initial term is generally 24 months with the option of 2 single year extensions, so that's not necessarily true.

[pete]

Similar call with account manager.

 

Trust very unhappy at the promise of jam tomorrow.

[XiJ]

We moved ~40 schools over to Arbor (other MIS providers are available) during March 2020 as the pandemic hit. (LA realised they didn’t really provide an IT service and so stopped pretending). So schools saw this as an ideal time to look into options.

 

Not one schools has said

 

- how tricky the move was

- how they hate the new product

- how the wish they’d never dumped sims

- how they lost data

 

All of the schools

 

- never want to look back

- found migration was handled superbly with a back up of sims and Arbors work

- wish they’d made the move years ago

- have found adoption and take up by all staff to be much better due to the user friendliness.

- have dumped a server

 

These were all primary to be fair but they all love their move.

Now I need to get rid of the stragglers still using FMS…

[paulkerton]

They made a big deal about how many schools had left then come back to SIMS, and how disruptive it was to move MISs.

Which isn't true on the whole.

 

Per school they have gone from 78% market share in Q3 2018 to 70% in Q2 2012. Per pupils its dropped from 82% to 75% in that period.

 

If schools are coming back to them, then they're getting a very small percentage compared to the total leaving and not returning.

 

https://bringmoredata.blogspot.com/2021/07/mis-market-update-sims-dip-below-70.html

[DrCheese]

I'm not sure where we stand on pushing back on this - It does feel like they've got most of us by the short/curlys as they know that we likely don't have the time to swap before renewal. What are our options?

[paulkerton]

I'm not sure where we stand on pushing back on this - It does feel like they've got most of us by the short/curlys as they know that we likely don't have the time to swap before renewal. What are our options?

 

I guess:

 

• Make the move to cancel and move before your end of contract date.
  
• Speak to your legal teams.
  

 

And with the first one I mean that you have till the end of your current term (which I assume is end of March) to move if you cancel by 31st December. You're just going to have a run procurement quickly... Easier to do if your costs won't hit the ceiling for a tender I suppose.

Edited November 12, 2021 by paulkerton