Coronavirus: General discussion (see opening post for rules)

[Ditto]

More good news - third vaccine approved https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-55586410

[elsiegee40]

Alarming story:

 

Hunt for fake vaccine fraudster who injected woman, 92, in Surbiton

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-55577426

 

A fraudster claiming to work for the NHS injected a 92-year-old woman with a fake Covid-19 vaccine, City of London Police has said.

 

Detectives are hunting the man who charged the victim in Surbiton, south-west London, £160.

 

Police said it was "crucial" he was caught as soon as possible as he "may endanger people's lives".

 

Det Insp Kevin Ives described it as a "disgusting and totally unacceptable assault".

[LeMarchand]

@LeMarchand

You are right, she doesn't work for a council. However, what if she did? Maybe dealing with homeless, mental health or accommodation? Surely she would be a candidate for a council labelling her a key worker although currently she wouldn't be? I know this because I do know someone who does work for the local council, and she is desperate to get help with her children as her job is pretty important.

 

In both your friend's cases, surely their employer should be providing help in the form of extra staff? If your council is anything like our local one, there might be money in the pot if the big boss wasn't using it to build their little empire or help out friends*. My further thoughts on this would take us into That Topic That Shall Not Be Discussed Here, so let's just say that a lot of these problems would be alleviated if we weren't living in a capitalist society where it's important that people keep having children so that they are both consuming more and creating more consumers, and wages are kept as low as possible for most while prices are kept as high as possible.

 

*Please note, I have not said which party this person belongs to.

[Steve21]

Take it with a pinch of salt, but would be nice if true!

 

Every adult to be offered Covid vaccine by autumn - Hancock

Every adult will be offered a Covid-19 vaccine by the autumn, Health Secretary Matt Hancock says.

 

He adds that this will be "according to need", with the most vulnerable offered a vaccine first.

 

Over the last week, he says, the UK has vaccinated around two million people - more people than it did in the entirety of December.

 

The exact figures will be published tomorrow, he adds.

 

Steve

[sigma]

Take it with a pinch of salt, but would be nice if true!

 

 

 

Steve

 

That's an "offered", a bit like counting the number of home tests sent out rather than tests complete. I assume there's a number of vaccine refusers factored into that.

 

There's also a lack of honesty about what happens after you have a vaccine. It is clear that until a high proportion of the population have been vaccinated, that "rules" will still need to be enforced to protect those that are still un-vaccinated, otherwise its the herd immunity scenario all over again.

[Andrew_C]

and to achieve that, they are delaying the second dose. Something Independent Sage says "is probably a good thing in the short term, but very close to being wrong" or sommat.

[mikeprice]

Normal message saying something but not what you think it is saying

 

probably find the plan is that everyone will have been offered a jab - but it will only mean the first one

 

By then who knows what the delay before the second one will be

 

 

I suspect they are privately planning on everyone having SOME protection by autumn - then doing it all properly next year with the 2 jabs - but which time the immediate problem of teh hospitals will have got better due to most people having 70% ish protection

 

then the proper schedule next year will kill it off

 

 

 

unless.........

[Andrew_C]

UK scientists have defended the government’s decision to delay the rollout of a second vaccine dose, arguing that the strategy is “justifiable” amid the recent surge in Covid-19 cases and hospitalisations.

 

Independent Sage, which is made up of leading scientific experts, said it was vital to “pursue coverage of as high a proportion of the population as possible, as quickly as possible” – but acknowledged it was a “finely balanced decision” to make.

 

Upon announcing approval for the Oxford vaccine last week, the government said doses would be administered up to three months apart, rather than over a four-week period, thereby allowing more people to be inoculated over a shorter time frame.

 

The policy also applies to the vaccine developed by Pfizer and BioNTech, which was licensed for use across the four nations last month and has already been administered to more than 500,000 people.

 

Independent Sage said there was “sound theoretical and empirical public health reasons” to support the decision to delay a second dose of the Oxford vaccine, including trial evidence which showed this prolonged interval boosts its effectiveness in preventing Covid disease.

 

However, the team of scientists – set up to shadow the government’s Scientific Advisory Group for Emergencies (Sage) – said “considerable concerns” have been rightly raised in implementing the same strategy for the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine.

 

Independent Sage said there was no evidence from the Pfizer trials which supports the theory that a delayed second dose will be as effective. It also warned there were ethical issues to addressed.

 

Here is the quote.

[elsiegee40]

Mr gee40’s Dad had his second vaccine dose last Thursday as scheduled. Mr gee40 ‘s Mum who is 79 gets her first dose on Tuesday. They’re in a village near Milton Keynes.

 

Meanwhile my Mum, who is older than both of them, has heard nothing as they haven’t started vaccination in Buxton yet.

 

Vaccination hasn’t started here either. They have finally announced where they’re going to do it, so hopefully it won’t be too long.

Edited January 10, 2021 by elsiegee40

[jmak]

Quite a good and balanced article in this week's BMJ:

https://www.bmj.com/content/372/bmj.n18

 

On one side:

Stephen Evans, professor of pharmacoepidemiology at the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine, said, “In an ideal world, decisions about treatments would only be made within the exact parameters of the trials which have been conducted. In the real world, this is never so . . . We know that vaccinating only half of a vulnerable population will lead to a notable increase in cases of covid-19, with all that this entails, including deaths. When resources of doses and people to vaccinate are limited, then vaccinating more people with potentially less efficacy is demonstrably better than a fuller efficacy in only half.”[/Quote]

 

On the other side:

Paul Bieniasz, a retrovirologist from Rockefeller University who is studying how the virus can acquire mutations, has warned that the UK was taking a gamble that risked fostering vaccine resistant forms of the virus. He told the news site STAT, “My concern, as a virologist, is that if you wanted to make a vaccine-resistant strain, what you would do is to build a cohort of partially immunized individuals in the teeth of a highly prevalent viral infection.”[/Quote]

 

The balance (as I read it) is that it is undeniably a risk, but given where we are, it's probably worthwhile. Also worth considering that the Oxford Astra Zeneca vaccine seemed to be more effective with a longer gap and that's what most people will now be getting. The history of vaccines suggests a longer gap is often better (HPV vaccine is routinely given in 2 doses a year apart which is shown to be significantly more effective than when given a month apart and several childhood vaccines are given as toddlers and then pre-school boosters). There's evidence that a single dose of the Pfizer vaccine is 89% effective after 21 days - the unknown is what happens after that.

 

My OH has had one dose of the Pfizer vaccine and has had it confirmed that the next one won't be 3 weeks later, but sometime before the end of March.

Edited January 10, 2021 by jmak

[witch]

Mr gee40’s Dad had his second vaccine dose last Thursday as scheduled. Mr gee40 ‘s Mum who is 79 gets her first dose on Tuesday. They’re in a village near Milton Keynes.

 

.

 

Are they in Bedfordshire rather than Bucks? My father in law has yet to be done and he is 91 so I wondered if it was a county thing?

[Ditto]

Are they in Bedfordshire rather than Bucks? My father in law has yet to be done and he is 91 so I wondered if it was a county thing?

 

My Mum, 80, had her second jab last Wednesday as originally planned. My Dad also in his 80's, but in a care home, got first jab shortly after Xmas. Both in West Sussex. Friends of my mum in the undertaking business in Devon were asked if they could send in 10 staff to the local GP as they had 10 unused doses. Someone we know, in Surrey, in their 40's but on the highly vulnerable list were contacted for a jab, but is awaiting medical advice as to whether it is safe to proceed. It seems to vary from area to area and a mixture of people from the first 4 target groups and some outside of those groups.

[elsiegee40]

Are they in Bedfordshire rather than Bucks? My father in law has yet to be done and he is 91 so I wondered if it was a county thing?

 

No they are in Bucks. A bus was laid on to take them to Bletchley for the jab.

[the_quick]

My problem with that delay of second dose is, there are no studies to confirm what impact delay will have. Yes it might work well enough, but what is after 4-5 weeks effectiveness drops massively? Eve Pfizer said they do not have any research done on that. It' looks like it is a coin toss, with fingers crossed.

 

Last week we had in lots of teachers and staff for first few days. Now a proper rota was set, teachers only come in to "baby sit" those pupils in school. Pupils juts follow normal timetable with most classes done over Google Meet. They all stay in same computer room whole day, teacher changes every 2 periods I think. Some teacher decided to work from school, as they find it easier, but 99% of the time they stay in their own classrooms. IT support works on rota, 1 person on site. Very similar to how it was during first lockdown. It seems that we have bot more pupils on site, I think they are divided in 4 groups , so maybe all together 60 on site, out of 1250.

I think our management did very good job with preparing for it, as they created very robust plan for online teaching back in December - I think they predicted what is going to happen.

 

Roll o spring

[Ditto]

I was pleased when I heard my Mum got the second vaccine based on the known data. I agree there is limited evidence and there is risk the decision could come back to bite, but I believe the risk has been assessed on a wider scientific basis than just the results for the study, so a bit more than a coin toss. They assumption is vaccinating more people to a lesser degree outweighs the benefits of vaccinating less people to a higher degree. Let's hope they are right! As I understand it, the picture for the Oxford vaccine is different in as much there is data to support a longer day, but I don't feel this is well documented by the media. I haven't dug in to this myself so if anyone else knows for certain, I'd be interested to be pointed to the details.

[mikeprice]

My problem with that delay of second dose is, there are no studies to confirm what impact delay will have. Yes it might work well enough, but what is after 4-5 weeks effectiveness drops massively? Eve Pfizer said they do not have any research done on that. It' looks like it is a coin toss, with fingers crossed.

 

Last week we had in lots of teachers and staff for first few days. Now a proper rota was set, teachers only come in to "baby sit" those pupils in school. Pupils juts follow normal timetable with most classes done over Google Meet. They all stay in same computer room whole day, teacher changes every 2 periods I think. Some teacher decided to work from school, as they find it easier, but 99% of the time they stay in their own classrooms. IT support works on rota, 1 person on site. Very similar to how it was during first lockdown. It seems that we have bot more pupils on site, I think they are divided in 4 groups , so maybe all together 60 on site, out of 1250.

I think our management did very good job with preparing for it, as they created very robust plan for online teaching back in December - I think they predicted what is going to happen.

 

Roll o spring

 

Sounds like schools vary - which is to be expected

 

your school seems to have come up with a sensible plan - other may be less willing or able to do so depending on specific circumstances

 

all we can really do it make the best of what we are given for now - and hope the vaccine works as the government hope - and no problems arise to screw the whole thing up

[jmak]

I was pleased when I heard my Mum got the second vaccine based on the known data. I agree there is limited evidence and there is risk the decision could come back to bite, but I believe the risk has been assessed on a wider scientific basis than just the results for the study, so a bit more than a coin toss. They assumption is vaccinating more people to a lesser degree outweighs the benefits of vaccinating less people to a higher degree. Let's hope they are right! As I understand it, the picture for the Oxford vaccine is different in as much there is data to support a longer day, but I don't feel this is well documented by the media. I haven't dug in to this myself so if anyone else knows for certain, I'd be interested to be pointed to the details.

Extract from the article I linked above:

 

The trials of the Oxford-AstraZeneca vaccine did include different spacing between doses, finding that a longer gap (two to three months) led to a greater immune response, but the overall participant numbers were small. In the UK study 59% (1407 of 2377) of the participants who had two standard doses received the second dose between nine and 12 weeks after the first. In the Brazil study only 18.6% (384 of 2063) received a second dose between nine and 12 weeks after the first.3 The combined trial results, published in the Lancet,4 found that vaccine efficacy 14 days after a second dose was higher in the group that had more than six weeks between the two doses (65.4%) than in the group that had less than six weeks between doses (53.4%).[/Quote]

 

https://www.bmj.com/content/372/bmj.n18

 

There is nothing either way on the Pfizer vaccine other than evidence that it does produce a strong immune response after 2 weeks - how long it lasts is supposition. As we've got enough Pfizer doses for 10M people and enough Oxford vaccine for 50M, I would have hedged on 3 week interval for the Pfizer and 12 for the Oxford - but I'd be guessing too...

[Ditto]

I would have hedged on 3 week interval for the Pfizer and 12 for the Oxford - but I'd be guessing too...

I agree. Although the original government comment didn't seem to back this, it appears many of those (like GPs) stuck with the second vaccine after three weeks for Pfizer, not least because there was not time to reschedule, but I think some decided that the 3 week approach was preferred.

[elsiegee40]

I’ve booked a slot to go to the tip next week. I’m not sure I can cope with the excitement of having something to do on my calendar [emoji23]

[6Foot2]

Link: Coronavirus: Morrisons to ban shoppers who refuse to wear face masks [bBC News]

 

Morrisons will bar customers who refuse to wear face coverings from its shops amid rising coronavirus infections.

 

From Monday, shoppers who refuse to wear face masks offered by staff will not be allowed inside, unless they are medically exempt.

 

The announcement comes amid concerns that social distancing measures are not being adhered to in supermarkets.

 

Vaccines minister Nadhim Zahawi said the government is "concerned" shops are not enforcing rules strictly enough.

 

"Ultimately, the most important thing to do now is to make sure that actually enforcement - and of course the compliance with the rules - when people are going into supermarkets are being adhered to," Mr Zahawi told Sky News.

 

"We need to make sure people actually wear masks and follow the one-way system," he said...

[elsiegee40]

Mum’s GP practice has announced on FB this morning that they’re finally starting to invite people for vaccination. Hopefully she won’t have long to wait now [emoji4] 🤞

 

EDIT

 

Four hours later she’s received the call and going on Saturday :)

Edited January 12, 2021 by elsiegee40

[caffrey]

How many of you are volunteering at school for a lateral flow test ? I turned it down and just had a meeting with the head to ask me why

[smurfomatic]

How many of you are volunteering at school for a lateral flow test ? I turned it down and just had a meeting with the head to ask me why

 

Had mine done during inset, happy to be tested weekly but don't think there would be any issues if I said no.

[caffrey]

I don't think there's any issues with me not doing it, I would prefer a PCR done by a professional for a real assessment. The BMJ has said lateral flow tests could cause serious harm https://blogs.bmj.com/bmj/2021/01/12/covid-19-government-must-urgently-rethink-lateral-flow-test-roll-out/

 

I'm just getting fed up of all the information overload now - don't know what to believe anymore, think I just want to get covid to get it over and done with regardless of the outcome

[kennysarmy]

Just had my second one today - not very pleasant but if it helps control the virus happy for a few moments of discomfort every week.