JJonas Posted August 10, 2011 Posted August 10, 2011 There was some excellent community based reporting from Sangat TV (Sky 847) in Birmingham last night.
jamesb Posted August 10, 2011 Posted August 10, 2011 I have always had the same viewpoint on this - kids should be disciplined properly (a good clip round the ear or smacked backside). Naughty steps and "time out" are complete and utter rubbish. Coppers should be able to clip them round the ear again - same old argument we've had before. Reasonable force. All this rioting rubbish comes from kids who have absolutely no sense of right or wrong and have little to no proper discipline. I have a different viewpoint. Many of the children I knew in school were disciplined with unthinking brute force of varying degrees, and none of those who were have grown up particularly successful or moral. I wasn't disciplined that way, and I'd like to think I'm not a bad person (I'm not out rioting anyway). Simply spouting that a clip round the ear or a whack with a cane would solve the problem is unthinking and ignorant. I had one incident where a teacher did whack me over the hand with a ruler in class, for something I hadn't done. I promptly devoted the next few hours working out a revenge of some sort. Fortunately my parents calmed me down from my rage when I got home and talked me out of arson - instead they made a complaint to the school and the teacher was quietly dismissed. Peer pressure though is something else entirely and quite unavoidable - it can only be overridden by each individuals willpower and sense of right/wrong. I never really suffered from it that much - possibly because my parents always reasoned with me as much as possible rather than trying to simply force me to do things 'cos it's right innit' without giving a reason. Teaching someone to think about consequences is infinitely more valuable than bullying them into unthinking obedience. 1
NikChillin Posted August 10, 2011 Posted August 10, 2011 NikChillin - Kids don't pop out as 100lb 6 foot masked gits. The point about parenting is to start showing discipline from the off. How you handle them from early infancy onwards makes a hell of a difference when they're 16. I have always had the same viewpoint on this - kids should be disciplined properly (a good clip round the ear or smacked backside). Naughty steps and "time out" are complete and utter rubbish. Coppers should be able to clip them round the ear again - same old argument we've had before. Reasonable force. All this rioting rubbish comes from kids who have absolutely no sense of right or wrong and have little to no proper discipline. Peer pressure though is something else entirely and quite unavoidable - it can only be overridden by each individuals willpower and sense of right/wrong. No they don't, he was fine until he hit 15, started drinking and smoking dope, by then he was that big! Once they hit skid row it is hard to get them back - sadly.
Stuart_C Posted August 10, 2011 Posted August 10, 2011 There is this from the BBC's website that about half way down (near the radio link) contains a well thought out sensible response from a principled rioter.
Dos_Box Posted August 10, 2011 Posted August 10, 2011 There is this from the BBC's website that about half way down (near the radio link) contains a well thought out sensible response from a principled rioter. When the BBC asked two youths why they were rioting, one responded: "Right, why are you going to miss the opportunity to get free stuff that's worth, like, loads of money?" But they said it was not just about that, adding it was in response to government cuts. One added: "How many people have they arrested really, though, 10? I'm not really bothered. I'll keep doing this every day until I get caught." He said he might be shouted at or grounded when he returned home but he would "live with that". He added that it would be his first offence "so I'm not really bothered". Way to go parenting.....
MK-2 Posted August 10, 2011 Posted August 10, 2011 adding it was in response to government cuts ah yes, because causing millions of pounds of damage and raising insurance premiums for many shops/homes/cars will make the government stop the cuts, and instead give everyone a free playstation
p3dr0 Posted August 10, 2011 Posted August 10, 2011 I think some military discipline would do them good, teach them some respect, failing that community service then. Do two years of education or national/community service when you leave school to qualify for benefits. Some of them might even enjoy it. yeah two years in afghanistan or iraq would do good for them (with no gun)... i cant even watch it i hope all this will end soon.. and all prosecuted should rebuild everything they have destroyed obviously for free...
localzuk Posted August 10, 2011 Posted August 10, 2011 It isn't that easy, if your son is twice your size and aggressive, how are you supposed to keep him in? I know someone who brought their son up properly but he has gone right off the rails, got in with the wrong crowd. They just feel helpless now. I'm bigger than both my parents, both in height and weight. But I would never have thought of acting up against them. When I was bad as a kid, I got a smack on the rear, grounded/sent to my room etc... The problem with the current lack of smacking etc... is that it teaches the kids that the worst punishment they'll get is basically someone talking at them... Real punishments engender real understanding of consequences. Our criminal justice system is as bad as the new methods of parenting too, basically most criminals get a slap on the wrist. There's no real consequences. Now, I don't condone the level of barbarity that exists in places like Thailand or Saudi Arabia, but there if you are caught stealing, you can be damn sure you'll be getting significant punishment. What we need to see is people not wanting to commit crimes, based on the fear that they WILL get caught and WILL be punished. 1
JJonas Posted August 10, 2011 Posted August 10, 2011 (edited) Sky News now reporting - Boris has asked Government to reconsider police cuts also PM to make statement at 11:00 Edited August 10, 2011 by JJonas
JJonas Posted August 10, 2011 Posted August 10, 2011 SHOP A MORON | The Sun |News -edit- inb4 you are a moron for reading The Sun
MK-2 Posted August 10, 2011 Posted August 10, 2011 What we need to see is people not wanting to commit crimes, based on the fear that they WILL get caught and WILL be punished. this right here sums it all up
Stuart_C Posted August 10, 2011 Posted August 10, 2011 When the BBC asked two youths why they were rioting, one responded: "Right, why are you going to miss the opportunity to get free stuff that's worth, like, loads of money?" But they said it was not just about that, adding it was in response to government cuts. Pre-emptive Disclaimer: Because the Wife made be watch it!!! I am strangely reminded of the film "Miss Congeniality" here. The part where she is being interviewed by the host of the beauty pagent and when asked "what does she want most in the world" replies saying she wants a robust and firm policing strategy (or something) and when the audience and host look blankly at her tags "And World Peace" on the end as the stock response.
NikChillin Posted August 10, 2011 Posted August 10, 2011 I'm bigger than both my parents, both in height and weight. But I would never have thought of acting up against them. When I was bad as a kid, I got a smack on the rear, grounded/sent to my room etc... The problem with the current lack of smacking etc... is that it teaches the kids that the worst punishment they'll get is basically someone talking at them... He was chastised as a child but when they get into drink and drugs their personality changes and it doesn't help when they are in a crowd that thinks it's big to act like idiots. It is hard to reason with someone who is continually spaced out.
jamesb Posted August 10, 2011 Posted August 10, 2011 Now, I don't condone the level of barbarity that exists in places like Thailand or Saudi Arabia, but there if you are caught stealing, you can be damn sure you'll be getting significant punishment. What we need to see is people not wanting to commit crimes, based on the fear that they WILL get caught and WILL be punished. What we need is people not wanting to commit crimes, because they're decent people. With a level of reasonable intelligence it wouldn't be hard to engineer a crime such that you wouldn't be caught and if your only deterrent is fear of punishment then you're setting up for some big problems. Is the only reason that you don't commit crimes because you might be caught and punished?
localzuk Posted August 10, 2011 Posted August 10, 2011 He was chastised as a child but when they get into drink and drugs their personality changes and it doesn't help when they are in a crowd that thinks it's big to act like idiots. It is hard to reason with someone who is continually spaced out. Why did he 'get into drink and drugs' though? Sure, every teen drinks, I drank at 15, but I also stayed sane. Many teens start smoking weed around that age too, but they don't all go nuts. I grew up on the Isle of Man, an area where teenage alcoholism is something like highest or second highest in the world, along with teenage marijuana use, but i'd be hard pushed to find someone who went completely off the rails like that.
localzuk Posted August 10, 2011 Posted August 10, 2011 What we need is people not wanting to commit crimes, because they're decent people. With a level of reasonable intelligence it wouldn't be hard to engineer a crime such that you wouldn't be caught and if your only deterrent is fear of punishment then you're setting up for some big problems. Is the only reason that you don't commit crimes because you might be caught and punished? No, it is because I'm a decent and moral person, but at a young age, kids are developing their own moral values, so punishment and fear are a key aspect of that. Look at religion? Why do people think they should be good people? One of the reasons is due to the discussions of not getting into heaven etc... ie. punishment. Fear is a key part of any moral system.
JJonas Posted August 10, 2011 Posted August 10, 2011 From Twitter Glad to see that greenwich council will work to evict any council-housed #londonriots #greenwichriots participants. Will other councils?
MK-2 Posted August 10, 2011 Posted August 10, 2011 No, it is because I'm a decent and moral person, but at a young age, kids are developing their own moral values, so punishment and fear are a key aspect of that. Look at religion? Why do people think they should be good people? One of the reasons is due to the discussions of not getting into heaven etc... ie. punishment. Fear is a key part of any moral system. Again, I wholeheartedly agree. Our school motto (or whatever it is), is "the fear of the lord is the beginning of wisdom" agree or disagree, that is what we're on about. if (exaggerated example) the government said anybody caught looting will have their hands chopped off, then after the third or fourth person gets their hand lopped off, the other scum thinking of doing it will think "hang on, do i want to risk it". obviously im not saying chop hands off, but if the fear of punishment is there, it will deter
featured_spectre Posted August 10, 2011 Posted August 10, 2011 That system works in Saudi. I remember once my friend went to Saudi and when it was prayer time in the middle of the day, the shops were left open, not because they trusted people, but because they knew nobody would steal as they would lose a hand. Fine we dont need a system that extreme, but we need a system that works as a proper deterrant, not just sitting in a cushy cell with a better meal that the serving soldiers get and a playstation 3 etc. They need a matress, toilet, sink, 3 basic rations a day, 1 hour exercise a day and be locked up for the rest of the day. Only form of entertainment would be books. Beyond that prisoners deserve no more. Same goes for Juvie as well. Shove the rioters in Juvie or Prison with that sort of system, and I bet they will think twice!
steve_nfi Posted August 10, 2011 Posted August 10, 2011 Unfortunately kids today seem to think the only way to gain respect is through fear, at the end of a knife or gun.
dgsmith Posted August 10, 2011 Posted August 10, 2011 The UK will continue to be under siege from the mindless violence until something changes in the way we police this country. When my granddad was a police officer in the 1940s he was feared by those who broke laws. He acted professionally and upheld the law, but did not have worry about trial by media if used force to restore order. Every use of force by a police officer in the UK has to be documented and justified. Many officers will not use the force necessary to restore order as they fear for their jobs and liberty! The interview with the two teenage girls on Monday shows this really well where they state 'we are showing the police we can do what we want!' The yobs and looters need something to fear [the police] or they will continue their reign of terror on the law abiding community. Just read this on BBC news website - says it all really.
Guest Guest Posted August 10, 2011 Posted August 10, 2011 (edited) Unfortunately kids today seem to think the only way to gain respect is through fear, at the end of a knife or gun. Was on one of those cop shows last night a bloke arguing with police that the knife they had taken from his mate in a nightclub was actually his knife. Police promptly nicked him. I was like WTF, is he really that stupid? But them what will happen to him, sweet FA all bet. Personally I think if you are caught with an offensive weapon on a night out you should get the same punishment as conspiracy to murder - as lets be right about it, what other possible reason is there to carry a knife other than to kill someone with it? Personally I would never carry a knife anywhere, other than in a tool box in my car on the way to a job. I would take it out of the car after use. This is because I, rightly or not, believe I would be punished for carrying an offensive weapon and punished accordingly. IMO punishment does work. My ex mates are all loons now as even when they were caught for doing quite horrendous stuff they were not properly punished - GBH/ABH = a few months in a cushty prison with more luxuries than they were used to at home. Obviously they don't want to be back in jail, but they are not that bothered tbh Edited August 10, 2011 by Guest
JJonas Posted August 10, 2011 Posted August 10, 2011 Sky now reporting they are making plans to use water cannons. Good about time. Fill them with red dye first though
jamesb Posted August 10, 2011 Posted August 10, 2011 No, it is because I'm a decent and moral person, but at a young age, kids are developing their own moral values, so punishment and fear are a key aspect of that. Look at religion? Why do people think they should be good people? One of the reasons is due to the discussions of not getting into heaven etc... ie. punishment. Fear is a key part of any moral system. I was brought up as an atheist, with no corporal punishment in the family. I think it would be fairly safe to say that I had nothing to fear in that respect. I'm not saying this would work for everyone, by any stretch, my point is more that saying fear and punishment are key is oversimplifying. 1
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