Are ESS trying to make it harder to migrate away from to SIMS?

[Ditto]

Thanks to @cnewstead in another thread highlighting the following December 2023 update.

 

See https://customer.support-ess.com/csm?id=kb_article_view&sysparm_article=KB0054129&sys_kb_id=6c11dab097d3b950a4b17e371153af49&spa=1. There are a couple of attachments in there about do's and don'ts. I haven't fully digested it yet, but it just has a feeling about it.

 

I'm really interested to hear if those who recently migrated from SIMS, or are about to, are working within the rules ESS have decided to dictate.

 

Any comment from Arbor or Bromcom staff?

Edited February 2, 2024 by 6Foot2

[Theblacksheep]

Yes, attempt to restrict data movement and increase transition barriers. The ParentPay group deserve little respect for their anti-competative nature.

[3s-gtech]

Interesting. The data within a database is the school's, but the way that data is structured and stored is not - both of those are reasonable. I do think they have a point, but they also need to ensure that the school's data is easy to extract in a usable form (e.g. not just some CTFs and a validation error).

[Cat_Jam148]

Attempting to plug the holes in their sinking ship. Seems they're definitely troubled by the amount of schools that are moving away from them and trying to restrict that movement any way they can.

 

Glad we moved.

[PrimaryNetMan]

In the early stages of migrating away from SIMs and the 3rd party support provider have said they will not support the school in their migration as it violates EES IPR! and the school should not share the backups as part of any migration either.

[TwistedHelixis]

In the early stages of migrating away from SIMs and the 3rd party support provider have said they will not support the school in their migration as it violates EES IPR! and the school should not share the backups as part of any migration either.

 

I believe (could be wrong) there is a legal requirement for data to be easily migrated to different platforms, or as easy as is possible. Putting up blocks does not sound like they are making it as easy as possible.

 

Thank god all my schools have already moved.

[PrimaryNetMan]

I believe (could be wrong) there is a legal requirement for data to be easily migrated to different platforms, or as easy as is possible. Putting up blocks does not sound like they are making it as easy as possible.

 

They signpost users to make use of reporting to create exports of the data they require for migration lol

 

Could it be that Wonde come to the rescue as they integrate with 3rd party MISs already and could facilitate transfer?

[howartp]

Could it be that Wonde come to the rescue as they integrate with 3rd party MISs already and could facilitate transfer?

Excellent idea.

[TwistedHelixis]

They signpost users to make use of reporting to create exports of the data they require for migration lol

Even if this is legal, surely there is no way any government body, local authority or education institution will ever recommend them in the future. This is just crazy

[Primus]

Honestly, another own goal from ESS.

[Ditto]

Interesting. The data within a database is the school's, but the way that data is structured and stored is not - both of those are reasonable. I do think they have a point, but they also need to ensure that the school's data is easy to extract in a usable form (e.g. not just some CTFs and a validation error).

I can see copying their structures would be an IPR breach, but I doubt anyone is doing that. I can't help but smile, but if the main contract says they can close the arrangement if you breach it... well, that's where you are heading anyway

[Ditto]

Getting in to some technical detail. I see in the explanatory note it says

This includes but is not limited to the design of each database, database structures and relationships, stored procedures and proprietary data

 

Appendix 1 in the second document adds more.

 

My background is more Oracle Server than MS SQL Server, but just how open is the SIMS database to an admin user.

 

For example, stored procedures would be encrypted and not visible in Oracle if necessary. Is that not the case in SIMS? The idea of encrypted data is fine, but I've not really considered encryption for the data structures and relationships before.

[Zoom7000]

The most worrying thing about all of ESS's continued behaviour is just how many schools refuse to move to much better platforms!

[ABR82]

Honestly, another own goal from ESS.

 

Absolutely. If anyone is still with them, look at the way the company acts and start looking at alternatives. It cannot be anything to do with worries about their IPR - presumably a backup from a single school would be enough to work out how the data is structured/stored, and that bird has very much flown.

 

I can't help but wonder if there's a typo in their statement:

With over 30 years of investment in software design

perhaps they meant to write that their software was designed 30 years ago.

 

ESS and Elon Musk continuing to rival one another for most successful recent IT related company acquisitions...

[Ditto]

The most worrying thing about all of ESS's continued behaviour is just how many schools refuse to move to much better platforms!

I agree, however, I'm convinced the migration is ongoing and perhaps the 3 year contract has just delayed another surge. It's a small sample, but two local schools I've spoken to in last week, have either already committed to move or are recruiting with a view to start a migration process.

[Ex-MGSTech]

https://customer.support-ess.com/csm?id=kb_article_view&sysparm_article=KB0054129&sys_kb_id=6c11dab097d3b950a4b17e371153af49&spa=1

[marshall_wave]

Truly pathetic and an admission they have no ability left to innovate their way of the market sentiment problem.

[Ditto]

From the first document

 

Since 2023 ESS has offered a comprehensive, tried and tested set of facilities for extracting customer data from the SIMS/FMS databases.

From the second document

 

Maybe the tools existed earlier, but the guiding document released at the point most schools were shut or about to be shut for Xmas.

[RobFuller]

This might explain why when you come to the end of your contract with ESS you have to provide written confirmation of deletion of all there software (understandably) but also your database(s) including all backups.

[Ditto]

I do wonder how retention of safeguarding related data works in the SIMS view of the world. I guess it all needs to be part of the migration and stored somewhere, somehow.

[Ditto]

I see Bromcom are listed as an ESS Technical Integrator - https://www.ess-sims.co.uk/technical-integrators?page=1#technical-integrators so provided they stick to the T&C's presumably can run migrations as they need. I couldn't see Arbor (or the Key) in the list.

[sefton]

I've done a number of migrations to Arbor from Sims and I just back up Sims DB and upload to Arbor. I have serious doubts if they could enforce this, it is school data sitting on Microsoft SQL server.

[Theblacksheep]

I've done a number of migrations to Arbor from Sims and I just back up Sims DB and upload to Arbor. I have serious doubts if they could enforce this, it is school data sitting on Microsoft SQL server.

 

School licenced SQL too.

[drutt]

I've done a number of migrations to Arbor from Sims and I just back up Sims DB and upload to Arbor. I have serious doubts if they could enforce this, it is school data sitting on Microsoft SQL server.

 

ESS argue that the schema used in the SQL DB is their intellectual property and sharing it with 3rd parties is a breach of that.

 

https://customer.support-ess.com/sys_attachment.do?sys_id=a411deb097d3b950a4b17e371153afff

 

To provide clarity, and help ensure schools migrate SIMS data in the appropriate way, we want to make clear the actions that are not permitted under the terms of the licence granted to customers by ESS, these include:

 

i) granting access to a third party to the SIMS or FMS software, or the SIMS, FMS or SIMS document store

databases or a backup copy of any of these databases in whole or in part, including but not limited to .BAK

files;

ii) retention of copies or backup copies of the SIMS/FMS/SIMS document store databases following contract

expiry; and

iii) retention or use by the customer or anyone on its behalf of SIMS or FMS software following contract expiry –

on expiry, the terms of the licence require all SIMS and/or FMS software be deleted or returned to ESS.

iv) any other action that is contrary to the agreements you have entered with ESS pertaining to but not limited to

Software Supply and Licence.

 

I've had a conversation with our migration partner as we are in the process of moving away from SIMS and they've said this has put a pause on their end as they need to identify the legal ramifications. Same for our 3rd party support provider. It's a huge mess.

[Michael]

I do understand from ESS's point of view that it breaches their IPR, however approx. 6000+ schools are now using Arbor/Bromcom and a good percentage of those probably did migrate from SIMS using a full export, or in other words a .bak file.

 

Whilst I agree that those with a local SQL DB could still export to .bak, I expect those migrating from SIMS Connected would need to export using the API.

 

A project I was involved in last year - Arbor did exactly this migrating from Progresso, so I have no reason to believe why Arbor and Bromcom can't export all MIS solutions using the API, however I would say this probably involves/requires more involvement/planning with the new MIS provider to comply rather than the school themselves to manage that export.

 

I genuinely don't think this will stall or pause the number of schools migrating away from SIMS. It's merely a technical pre-requisite when schools migrate to a new provider, which ESS's documents do acknowledge.