ESS SIMS 3 Year Contracts

[tech2013]

Is there anything we can do? I think telling customers to sign for a 3 year deal with only a few months left is not a very good practice and something we should raise with regulators? It looks to me like unfair business practices to be honest.

[rpwillis]

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/unfair-contract-terms-cma37

 

That's about the Consumer Rights Act 2015 which doesn't apply to business to business contracts. There's far less protection for them and it's basically buyer beware.

[vikpaw]

yeah I see. But exactly- who could risk handing notice in now when you haven't yet had a chance to properly investigate the alternatives, it would be too rushed.

 

Can you not issue a notice that you don't intend to renew and then change your mind in March?

 

Would they really refuse to take you back if you offered to sign a three year contract?

 

I was going to suggest this. It would be hard to get governing body / SLT backing, but if enough schools grouped together and said no, that would send a big message. I doubt they would refuse to sign you up again, but they might try and hike the price!

 

Ironically, their own research highlighted issues with vendors

...locking them [schools] into their new MIS because their supplier’s contract has no provision for MIS switching or data migration.

Does anyone who has already jumped ship have any tender documentation they're willing to share as to what sort of questions/criteria were used?

 

Obviously the weights and direction of every school is different but seeing other examples is always a good starting point.

 

I followed a few of the larger MAT tenders, and the docs are public. Example here: https://unitedlearning.org.uk/tenders/mis There's an excel with MIS spec'. Other docs available elsewhere too.

 

As you say though, each school / org is different. I would recommend you draw up a list of important features / must-haves internally before looking elsewhere, and then see what gaps there are. Also, start high-level, and then break down to individual points.

[vikpaw]

Is there anything we can do? I think telling customers to sign for a 3 year deal with only a few months left is not a very good practice and something we should raise with regulators? It looks to me like unfair business practices to be honest.

Is there anything in the old contracts about renewal procedures? I thought many contracts had a clause about renewing annually after the initial period, to make it easier to retain customers who forget to give notice.

[localzuk]

I followed a few of the larger MAT tenders, and the docs are public. Example here: https://unitedlearning.org.uk/tenders/mis There's an excel with MIS spec'. Other docs available elsewhere too.

Probably best not to use UL as a guide, as Bromcom sued them...

[stevewill6]

Just seen this.

 

https://www.theregister.com/2021/11/16/enterprise_software_solutions_tells_school/

[howartp]

Arbor

Bromcom

iSAMS / Ed:gen

RM Integris

SIMS

 

Have I missed any Secondary MIS's?

 

(Single school Academy, 1800 students)

[localzuk]

PupilAsset

Advanced

 

That's another 2 I think.

[vikpaw]

Probably best not to use UL as a guide, as Bromcom sued them...

True

 

AET abandoned theirs due to

... correspondence from certain bidders from which it appears that different bidders may have proceeded on the basis of different understandings of the requirements of the ITT.

Nevertheless, lots of info out there to make a start, but I'd say you need your own list first.

[howartp]

Arbor

Bromcom

iSAMS / Ed:gen

RM Integris

SIMS

 

Have I missed any Secondary MIS's?

 

(Single school Academy, 1800 students)

 

PupilAsset

Advanced

 

That's another 2 I think.

PupilAsset are Primary and MAT only.

Advanced aren't on the GCloud 12 framework that I can find but i'll look at them.

[howartp]

PupilAsset are Primary and MAT only.

Advanced aren't on the GCloud 12 framework that I can find but i'll look at them.

Apologies, just found Advanced on the framework.

 

Their product name is different on G-Cloud to their website.

[paulkerton]

Hi TheRegister!

Would've been nice if you'd asked before quoting me fellas, but I'm OK with that particular quote

[localzuk]

PupilAsset are Primary and MAT only.

Advanced aren't on the GCloud 12 framework that I can find but i'll look at them.

Huh, PupilAsset must've abandoned secondary then as they quoted it for us a few years ago.

[jmak]

Playing a dangerous game, not something I'd want to do with a system that's so important

 

What's annoying, is they know that. Which is why they're getting away with this.

I take your point, but it's a licensing issue and SIMS will carry on working and your database will be intact. The first time you'd have any kind of issue is when you need a patch - and most of those cause more problems than they fix. It's not like an O365 subscription that stops you editing documents if you don't have a subscription.

 

They pulled the same trick when they bought Schoolcomms. We managed to get an exception as we'd had it confirmed that our school was due to close (effectively merge with another, but stop existing as a legal entity) and we'd been told not to enter into contracts beyond a particular date. We told them one year or no years and they backed down. Sounds like they play harder ball nowadays.

[RobFuller]

2-hour wait on the ESS 'sales' line before I called time. What's more depressing was my phone call time counter reset halfway through, new lows.

[DrCheese]

I take your point, but it's a licensing issue and SIMS will carry on working and your database will be intact. The first time you'd have any kind of issue is when you need a patch - and most of those cause more problems than they fix.

 

That's not quite true. I've had to deploy 3 patches alone recently that have fixed issues that would have prevented the census (Either pupil or workforce) from going through & sometimes they use the "Spring/summer/winter" releases to fix these issues.

Census has a fixed deadline that you can't move.

Also we've had fairly major patches in the past year that fix data breach issues that we'd be stuffed without support giving us the updates.

 

Lastly, you're then in direct violation of laws around using unlicensed software & ESS could quite easily take you to court if they suspected you're still actively using unlicensed software.

Edited November 16, 2021 by DrCheese

[Primus]

 

Lastly, you're then in direct violation of laws around using unlicensed software & ESS could quite easily take you to court if they suspected you're still actively using unlicensed software.

 

Your SIMS licence is perpetual, you're paying for software assurance - patches and support potentially. Once you leave you can continue using SIMS but you obviously don't get patches or support - this is not illegal.

[DrCheese]

ah ok forgot that was perpetual - The issue about not getting patches is still a problem tho if you run this way

[mavhc]

we can always do a clean room implementation of the patches, they're usually just a bit of sql

[Koldov]

So, basically you have to keep paying them in order to receive updates (which you require for census) and then support and patches, which will fix(?) the errors they create in the updates (which you are also paying for) in the poor software they created... sounds like a plan!

[Zoom7000]

Now I need to get rid of the stragglers still using FMS…

 

How did you address the issue with FMS? I'm trying to persuade a few of the schools we work with to make the jump away from SIMS, but the issue has always been FMS. Are the 2 exclusive? Are there many school out there who have moved to a cloud based MIS but still running FMS?

 

How difficult is it for LA schools to move away from FMS? I've always been told that the LAs tend to require specific returns from FMS, but my argument has always been, surely an LA can't dictate what software you must run, if it's costly and counter productive to progression.

 

I've always steered clear or been kept out of the loop on finance package conversations, but am interested to learn how to help schools move forward.

[jmak]

How did you address the issue with FMS? I'm trying to persuade a few of the schools we work with to make the jump away from SIMS, but the issue has always been FMS. Are the 2 exclusive? Are there many school out there who have moved to a cloud based MIS but still running FMS?

 

How difficult is it for LA schools to move away from FMS? I've always been told that the LAs tend to require specific returns from FMS, but my argument has always been, surely an LA can't dictate what software you must run, if it's costly and counter productive to progression.

 

I've always steered clear or been kept out of the loop on finance package conversations, but am interested to learn how to help schools move forward.

The required return to the LA is that it has to meet the Consistent Financial Reporting Framework:

 

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/consistent-financial-reporting-framework-2021-to-2022/what-s-new-for-2021-to-2022

 

To create the actual return you use the XML generator that the DfE publish every year:

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/consistent-financial-reporting-framework-2020-to-2021/consistent-financial-reporting-framework-xml-generator-2020-to-2021

 

You can use FMS without SIMS, but no LA can make you use FMS - and there can't be any left that don't have experience with other systems now.

[AdminAssistant]

Hi @jmak.

 

Newbie on EduGeek

I work in a primary school in Cheltenham (Gloucestershire)

We were looking into moving away from SIMS but like many people were stopped because of FMS.

Our Business Manager is strongly opposed to moving away from SIMS and FMS.

Our only hope to get rid of SIMS is to find a way of keeping FMS.

I have to admit I never used it and don't really know how it works. Business Manager is convinced that FMS does not talk to other MISs.

You mentioned in your post that there is a possibility of that. Would you mind pointing me in a right direction to get more info?

Big thanks in advance

Edited November 16, 2021 by AdminAssistant

[vikpaw]

ah ok forgot that was perpetual - The issue about not getting patches is still a problem tho if you run this way

 

Worth checking contracts on this point.

 

Direct deal with Capita was perpetual but I think some of the LA deals were a license fee that was annual. Or there was some complication that meant you couldn’t use it if you stopped paying.

 

 

 

@Zoom7000

 

I moved a school away from SIMS and kept FMS. We were supposed to get a feed into it. There are import options.

 

We ended up just posting journal entries of summary totals. FMS did the full accounting ledger and the Fees part (accounts receivable) was handled by the MIS - in this case Engage.

 

You just need to ensure the Finance team are ok with this can get the reports they need and know what to do for an audit.

Edited November 16, 2021 by vikpaw

[RossSmart]

in answer to your first question - Are the 2 exclusive? Are there many school out there who have moved to a cloud based MIS but still running FMS? – the answer is that you don’t have to run them both and yes, there are many schools out there who continue with FMS but have moved away from SIMS to a cloud MIS. Recently I have worked with an eight-school federation who use FMS and Arbor MIS and are happy with the set up (more happy than before).

In answer to your next set of questions, it is not difficult for LA schools to move away from FMS and continue to meet their own, as well as the LA’s, requirements. Most recently, London Borough of Hackney LA helped its schools purchase cloud MIS and an alternative finance system to FMS – see this link - https://www.find-tender.service.gov.uk/Notice/028345-2021

And you’re right to say LA’s can’t dictate what software schools run!