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So... NHS Contact Tracing App

LeMarchand

By LeMarchand
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Arthur

Arthur

Posted
Posted
Big Brother's wettest dream?

Yep! :)

 

Palantir's NHS data project "may outlive coronavirus crisis"

 

The project is being managed by NHSX, Peter Thiel’s controversial data analysis firm Palantir, and the London AI company Faculty. As NS Tech reported earlier this week, Palantir, which is focused on the data engineering side of the project, has offered up 45 engineers at an estimated cost of £88,000 a week, in return for just a £1 fee.

 

A source close to the project said Palantir would be well placed to continue providing the service after the coronavirus outbreak comes to an end, especially if it was willing to provide its software for less than the market rate. It might be willing to do so if in order to secure further work with other healthcare organisations around the world.

 

Faculty is responsible for turning the data Palantir collates into actionable insights for hospitals, as well as government officials and ministers. Its services may not need to be retained to keep the project running afterwards. NS Tech understands that the data is playing a central role in the decision-making around when the government will allow the NHS to start performing elective care again.

 

NHSX has not immediately responded to a request for comment, but its CEO Matthew Gould revealed last month that while the data gathered during the coronavirus outbreak will either be destroyed at the end of the pandemic or returned to the NHS, the government would seek to learn from its technology partners to improve how it collects, aggregates and analyses data.

 

See also: Trump Admin Gives Coronavirus Tracking Contract to Peter Thiel's Palantir

 

I certainly won't be installing the app.

smurfomatic

smurfomatic

Posted
Posted

By some reports (notably on The Register here) the app they're using needs to be running constantly in the foreground, as it's not integrated into Apple or Android systems.

 

Also some major data protection and privacy concerns, especially as some of the main players involved in developing the app have ties to Cambridge Analytica.

 

Add to that it'll be pretty much useless once I'm back at work - in a school with 300 children aged 13 and under, who aren't allowed phones - I certainly won't be installing it.

FishCustard

FishCustard

Posted
Posted
I thought while it wasn't using the Apple-Google decentralised model, it was using the same underlying tech? If it requires foreground then I absolutely will not be installing it, and the people who designed it should be slapped with a fish.
pete

pete

Posted
Posted

An NHS IT project, designed by Palantir (of all people) that reports back to a central database? That doesn't even work? On my phone?

 

Nope. I'd rather they realised their mistake and redid it than create a false sense of security via a poorly designed app.

  • Thanks 2
jmak

jmak

Posted
Posted
By some reports (notably on The Register here) the app they're using needs to be running constantly in the foreground, as it's not integrated into Apple or Android systems.

 

Also some major data protection and privacy concerns, especially as some of the main players involved in developing the app have ties to Cambridge Analytica.

 

Add to that it'll be pretty much useless once I'm back at work - in a school with 300 children aged 13 and under, who aren't allowed phones - I certainly won't be installing it.

There was a government spokesman on the radio this morning (I think it was the MP for Isle of Wight, but was a bit asleep, so can't be certain) who very confidently assured us that it worked with iOS even when the phone wasn't being used. Seems that they're relying on this from the article on The Resister you linked:

 

The NHS has insisted its engineers have worked around this problem "sufficiently well" by waking the app after it detects itself running on a nearby phone emitting an ID: the software is blocked from sending out its ID when in the background but it can passively listen for IDs of apps still allowed to broadcast. However, this assumes there are a sufficient number of phones running the tracing app nearby still broadcasting to keep enough people's apps awake: there needs to be a critical mass of users while we're all supposed to be socially distancing. If two or more people pass each other and their apps have stopped broadcasting, the software will never know they came in contact.[/Quote]

 

I presume they've made a decision that most people will install it anyway (the general public's record on caring about or understanding data privacy is pretty lax) and they'd rather have the detail from a few rather than the basic from everyone.

Sylv3r

Sylv3r

Posted
Posted

Thinking aloud.

 

What happens if some jack the lad in school, reports they have the symptoms / virus. Then everybody else in school receives a message to say someone in their vicinity that they may have came into contact with has COVID-19 !

 

I can see the mass hysteria now.

DrCheese

DrCheese

Posted
Posted

This is the stupidest idea ever from the government

 

https://order-order.com/2020/05/05/10-problems-nhss-new-coronavirus-app/

 

 

Do it right, or don't bother at all. This will make people feel safe when they are anything but.

 

Also it doesn't rely on any proof - The apple/google one relies on people entering a positive test number. This just relies on you reporting it. So of course it'll be abused - Students could just say "lol I'm positive" and cause it to report a mass outbreak.

 

The level of stupid on this. I just.. I can't even any more.

FishCustard

FishCustard

Posted
Posted

There was a standard out there (Apple-Google) that they could've just used! Why on Earth did they not? Their justification was something like "oh but if we centralise bits of it we can better integrate etc" - you don't need to! The system does everything for you.

 

As others have said, another footnote in the history of NHS IT failures. The Civil Service are -so good- at so many IT things, the GOV.UK portal is literally world leading - why do they cock up anything involving the NHS?

Arthur

Arthur

Posted
Posted
This is the stupidest idea ever from the government

Agreed! :(

 

UK finds itself almost alone with centralized virus contact-tracing app that probably won't work well, asks for your location, may be illegal (The Register)

 

Britain is sleepwalking into another coronavirus blunder by failing to listen to global consensus and expert analysis with the release of the NHS COVID-19 contact-tracking app.

 

On Monday, the UK government explained in depth and in clearly written language how its iOS and Android smartphone application – undergoing trials in the Isle of Wight – will work, and why it is a better solution to the one by Apple and Google that other nations have decided to adopt. It has also released a more technical explanation.

 

Unfortunately for folks in UK, while the explanation is coherent, calm, well-reasoned and plausible, it is likely to be a repeat of the disastrous "herd immunity" approach the government initially backed as a way to explain why it didn't need to go into a national lockdown. That policy was also well-reasoned and well-explained by a small number of very competent doctors and scientists who just happened to be wrong.

 

So, um, a problem...

But there is a concern with the NHS's approach: it requires workarounds to function as advertised, probably won't work as well as expected, and probably won't be terribly accurate at measuring the spread of the virus.

 

Apple's iOS normally forbids applications from broadcasting via Bluetooth when running in the background. That means you would have to leave the app open in the foreground for it to work properly.

 

However, the operating system does allow software, such as the NHS tracing app, to run in a special mode so that it can announce itself to nearby phones via Bluetooth, and listen out for copies of itself on other iPhones and iPads, even when in the background. However, there are limits to this. For instance, Apple says this only works with other iOS devices, and not Android. Its transmissions may be delayed if the device is busy sending other data over Bluetooth. The app has ten or so seconds to wake up and respond to nearby phones running the contact-tracing app, or be killed or throttled back.

 

Meanwhile, Google Android versions 8 and later allow contact-tracing applications to announce themselves for only a few minutes after the app falls into the background. The apps could run as a foreground service on Android all the time, with an icon present to say it's active while other programs run in the foreground, though this isn't particularly battery friendly nor recommended by Google, and could lead to people simply not using the app to preserve power.

 

Thus, compromises have been made to work around iOS and Android, rather than use the decentralized Apple-Google API that handles all of this automatically in the background by the operating system, which is kinder to battery life and potentially more accurate. Some encounters between people may be missed either due to operating system incompatibilities, limits on execution and transmission, or because the software proves to be such a battery hog that people don't bother with it. Or forget to run the app.

 

For instance, here is a handy video of an iOS contact-tracing app vanishing from a nearby Android phone when the app is closed, or the iPhone falls asleep. This app is Australia's Bluetooth-based COVIDSafe software, which, like the NHS approach, doesn't use the Apple-Google API.

 

The NHS has insisted its engineers have worked around these limits "sufficiently well" by, on iOS at least, running it in the special background mode, and briefly waking the app after it detects itself running on a nearby device. It can also announce itself to nearby iOS devices.

 

Continues...

 

Without Apple and Google, the UK’s contact-tracing app is in trouble

 

It’s possible to argue, then, that the UK app will work in urban environments where there are a mix of old and new iOS and Android devices constantly in use.

 

But experts say this is a long way from a reliable mechanism necessary to trace the spread of a deadly disease, especially considering that the market share of iOS in the UK is more than 50 percent.

LeMarchand

LeMarchand

Posted
  • Author
Posted
As others have said, another footnote in the history of NHS IT failures. The Civil Service are -so good- at so many IT things, the GOV.UK portal is literally world leading - why do they cock up anything involving the NHS?

 

Reasons we're not allowed to discuss here :(.

jmak

jmak

Posted
Posted (edited)

 

Why are the government so determined to use such a broken model?!

 

Because they think they'll get away with it?

 

Context for the following: I can't see myself downloading this app. I don't trust the people developing, implementing or operating this system. I don't think it will work as intended due to protections in the operating system...

 

I think there would be advantages in a centralised database. You could continually refine your algorithm of who to alert based on retrospective analysis of who actually catches the virus out of the people who were identified as contacts. Knowing the approximate home address of participants would make planning treatment resources easier. Knowing where the contacts which actually caused infection took place could identify the highest risk activities/locations.

 

If the government wants to get consent for a centralised system, then they need to be prepared to put in place safeguards, such as a law to regulate the limits of its use, publication of the code, the right to have your data deleted from the database and a time limit on how long they request permission to run the project. Without that, they cannot deserve our trust.*

 

*Edit. This statement applies to whoever wants to implement such a system, not to a particular government or party.

Edited by jmak
  • Thanks 1
DrCheese

DrCheese

Posted
Posted

Yes, especially as already they've said "We may keep the data"

 

These guys are idiots, pure and simple. It's next level incompetence that'll either kill the project stone dead (Because no one will trust it) or make people think they are safe using it when they are anything but.

mikeprice

mikeprice

Posted
Posted

hmmm

 

worrying stuff

 

especially as I pretty much will have to use it - as my wife could be very vulnerable to this virus I cannot afford to pass on any way to know if I have had contact with an infected person

 

If I get the virus and pass it onto her then, potentially, she could die

 

and arranging funerals is SUCH a faff

 

 

 

therefore I can't really avoid it

 

But - I may chuck it onto an old phone with no SIM car but functionin wifi and bluetooth - then format the phone once we get out of this mess

 

Other problem, of course, is that I can go days without ever being close to someone else who may have the app on a phone - so if it depends on seeing other phones to stay awake then it may not function properly

 

Good thing is that is cannot really give them much info about me

a) at home - most of the time

b) ride bike along the same route one a day

c) Tesco when we run out of brea

 

that'll be it unless I get rad and go to the butchers

paulkerton

paulkerton

Posted
Posted (edited)
The NHS COVID-19 iOS app does work in the background...

It would not surprise me if they're using a mechanism which isn't allowed for publicly published apps on the App Store.

 

For me, if it's 18+ only, which apparently it is, and children can't take their phones into our school anyway, it's pretty much useless, regardless of all of my concerns (which we aren't allowed to talk about here) in regards to the data collection.

Edited by paulkerton
jmak

jmak

Posted
Posted

Just had another look at Jason Kneen's Twitter that @Arthur linked to earlier:

 

"So, final conclusion on what I'm seeing in logs on iOS, iPadOS, Android is the app is running in the background on all devices when locked and screen is off. All apps talk to each other when they come into range (whatever that is) and exchange messages -- that's what I'm seeing.

 

 

I’ll give it a rest now, source code will be available soon and we'll have more conclusive details but my tests are showing that the COVID-19 app does NOT need to be in the foreground of an unlocked device to connect to other devices running it. Out."

 

Question 1) How have the developers broken security in Android and iOS? Could it be to do with GCHQ's involvement?

 

Question 2) How long will it take Apple and Google to patch it to stop it working?

mikeprice

mikeprice

Posted
Posted

Given that some of us use phones with older versions of Android - and cannot update due to dumb Samsung memory and uninstallable apps

 

does it run on older versions of Android - assuming, of course, that updates have been run

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