Coronavirus: General discussion (see opening post for rules)

[Ditto]

8% of classes here are now at home

 

Highest weekly deaths since May

 

Deaths have risen and it tracks to rising cases, but I couldn't match to the May date on the gov site. Which dataset is it that maps to May? I mentioned in an earlier comment on Dr. John Campbell's posts that I'd watch the FOI one. It's all about data around deaths and absolutely enlightening. It gives insight into Covid deaths and excess deaths due to cancer. I'd highly recommend watching it. Stick with it to the end with the volume up and you get an uplifting bit of birdsong too!

[LeMarchand]

Recently learned of someone who has a wife and 2 young kids, one of whom has contracted Covid from playschool. Wife has little income coming in, so while she and kids are isolating he isn't (and isn't testing either) as he would only get SSP which wouldn't be enough to get by on. (Both adults are fully vaccinated). Not condoning this, but I would imagine this is a very common scenario. Is it any wonder it's not easy to get infection rates down?

 

In the news: Across the channel a French health chief has sparked a debate on whether those that choose not to get vaccinated should pay for their healthcare should they become infected.

[Koldov]

Recently learned of someone who has a wife and 2 young kids, one of whom has contracted Covid from playschool. Wife has little income coming in, so while she and kids are isolating he isn't (and isn't testing either) as he would only get SSP which wouldn't be enough to get by on. (Both adults are fully vaccinated). Not condoning this, but I would imagine this is a very common scenario. Is it any wonder it's not easy to get infection rates down?

 

In the news: Across the channel a French health chief has sparked a debate on whether those that choose not to get vaccinated should pay for their healthcare should they become infected.

 

I should imagine it's very common, there have been lots of calls for workers to get more in the way of support to help them isolate. There are vast amounts of workers who live 'hand to mouth' or on the 'breadline' and cannot afford to live on even a few pounds less.

 

There are always those who cannot afford to be 'off sick' and struggle in to work with whatever aches and pains (or infectious diseases) they have. Whether you agree with that or not, you can't deny that not everyone has the luxury of getting decent sick-pay from their employer (zero hours, gig economy, etc.) or live any kind of life that can withstand living on SSP even for a week or two.

 

I'm sure there are lots of reasons people become infected and possibly lots of incidents where it might almost be unavoidable (for those that cannot just sit in their house and see nobody else for over 2 years), but I have to say, I admit looking at the peak infections and wondering... 'what exactly are those 150,000 people A DAY doing...?'

 

Not wanting to derail the thread too far off-topic, but I think the French Health Chief is on thin ice... where will that lead? Car accident.. your fault? No healthcare! Lung cancer... smoker? No healthcare! Liver disease... like a tipple? No healthcare!

[JordanT91]

Recently learned of someone who has a wife and 2 young kids, one of whom has contracted Covid from playschool. Wife has little income coming in, so while she and kids are isolating he isn't (and isn't testing either) as he would only get SSP which wouldn't be enough to get by on. (Both adults are fully vaccinated). Not condoning this, but I would imagine this is a very common scenario. Is it any wonder it's not easy to get infection rates down?

 

In the news: Across the channel a French health chief has sparked a debate on whether those that choose not to get vaccinated should pay for their healthcare should they become infected.

 

Why is the wife isolating? There's no requirement to isolate now unless you either have Covid or are contacted by NHS Test and Trace because you are a close contact and haven't been vaccinated.

[Andrew_C]

Why is the wife isolating? There's no requirement to isolate now unless you either have Covid or are contacted by NHS Test and Trace because you are a close contact and haven't been vaccinated.

She may not be "isolating" but looking after the kid who isn't at playschool?

[LeMarchand]

Why is the wife isolating? There's no requirement to isolate now unless you either have Covid or are contacted by NHS Test and Trace because you are a close contact and haven't been vaccinated.

 

She may not be "isolating" but looking after the kid who isn't at playschool?

 

Not sure of the full details, but AFAIK she may have tested positive. Even if she hasn't, @Andrew_C is correct in that the younger one isn't old enough to go to playschool and she'd never earn enough to pay for a nanny.

[mavhc]

Deaths have risen and it tracks to rising cases, but I couldn't match to the May date on the gov site. Which dataset is it that maps to May? I mentioned in an earlier comment on Dr. John Campbell's posts that I'd watch the FOI one. It's all about data around deaths and absolutely enlightening. It gives insight into Covid deaths and excess deaths due to cancer. I'd highly recommend watching it. Stick with it to the end with the volume up and you get an uplifting bit of birdsong too!

 

Week ending date Weekly registered deaths

14-01-2022 1,557

12-03-2021 1,637

 

March, not May, whoops.

 

The number about people who die with only COVID? That's a useless number.

 

Step 1: What percentage of people have 0 other conditions, how many people have no high blood pressure, no asthma, no diabetes, no alzheimers, etc etc etc

Step 2: What percentage of people who have COVID and die, die without the COVID causing other diseases like pneumonia?

Step 3: Warning signs: you're told to watch a youtube video for information. The youtube videos keeps using the phrase "mainstream media"

 

If we'd stop letting everyone get infected with COVID then the hospitals wouldn't be overloaded and people with cancer can get treatment.

[kennysarmy]

If we'd stop letting everyone get infected with COVID then the hospitals wouldn't be overloaded and people with cancer can get treatment.

 

Month after month of lockdown?

[Ditto]

To say May instead of March is forgivable - we all make mistakes. To say Dr. John Campbell's analysis includes data with a useless number is dismissive (and that's a toned down version of my thoughts!). He's well aware of comorbidities and respectfully acknowledges the numbers are real people. The comment on Step 3 befuddles me. Firstly, you weren't 'told'. Second, Youtube is just a platform for Dr. Campbell to present. In terms of 'mainstream media', he talks about BBC, ITV, C4. They are of a size to have there own means of supporting online presentation. I see nothing here that warrants a 'warning sign'.

 

If there was a simple way to 'stop letting everyone get infected', don't you seriously think those steps would be would be taken? Lockdowns and reduced socialising reduces spread, but they also have consequences. The excess deaths for cancer is stark. I had insight into this a a bit earlier than from this report. I know a corporate PHI provider with 10k global employees, and 1k in the UK, so sizeable. changes in death rates overall have not impacted them. Increased late stage cancer diagnosis has. The reasons for that are commented on by Dr. Campbell with reference to Prof. Sikora's commentary and it certainly isn't as simple as hospital's being overloaded. Long covid remains a worry for them. In a slightly morbid and stark way, in purely financial terms, long illness is more costly than death for such companies.

 

Back to the death figures you highlight, the recent 1,557 is horribly high. But, it is a sixth of the two previous peaks in early 2021 and Spring 2020. Let's celebrate what the scientists have achieved and the lives that have been saved by their work.

[LeMarchand]

Not wanting to derail the thread too far off-topic, but I think the French Health Chief is on thin ice... where will that lead? Car accident.. your fault? No healthcare! Lung cancer... smoker? No healthcare! Liver disease... like a tipple? No healthcare!

 

I suppose that the counterarguments would be that those people have actively refused treatment and, in doing so, probably helped the spread of the virus rather than just harming themselves.

 

Month after month of lockdown?

 

I blinked and missed those months!

 

Less frivolously, my observation was that we had a couple of months of something approaching lockdown and then for a lot of people (apart from the Guardian columnists/readers mentioned upthread) it was back to work (if you were lucky, from home). There have been some sectors that were hit pretty hard, mainly hospitality/leisure etc) and some are still in a holding pattern (a family friend who works for a supplier for a well known fashion chain is still on paid "lockdown" leave) but it seems that many governments are trying to get back to the way it was before Covid way too quickly. Over here the simple and, for most, easy to implement precaution of mask wearing is being almost banned (or actually banned if you are a class teacher).

Edited January 28, 2022 by LeMarchand

[jmak]

I suppose that the counterarguments would be that those people have actively refused treatment and, in doing so, probably helped the spread of the virus rather than just harming themselves.

 

 

 

I blinked and missed those months!

 

Less frivolously, my observation was that we had a couple of months of something approaching lockdown and then for a lot of people (apart from the Guardian columnists/readers mentioned upthread) it was back to work (if you were lucky, from home). There have been some sectors that were hit pretty hard, mainly hospitality/leisure etc) and some are still in a holding pattern (a family friend who works for a supplier for a well known fashion chain is still on paid "lockdown" leave) but it seems that many governments are trying to get back to the way it was before Covid way too quickly. Over here the simple and, for most, easy to implement precaution of mask wearing is being almost banned (or actually banned if you are a class teacher).

Yep. Balance is what is missing from a lot of places. We have to acknowledge the harm that's being done by the current measures, but it's no use telling everyone to go back to "normal" if you end up with such a high level of absence from work/school that you don't get anywhere near normal. And that doesn't go near the discussion about what's an acceptable number of deaths. Not quite sure exactly what I would be comfortable with, but with the 1839 there were last week feels significantly too high for me.

[Ditto]

Paxlovid to be prescribed by NHS from Feb 10th for the most vulnerable. There do appear to be some challenges with the right people getting access at the right time - let's hope they get resolved as soon as possible.

[Ditto]

Case numbers will appear to jump on Monday on gov site due to a reporting change counting re-infections - see coronavirus.data.gov.uk https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/whats-new/record/af008739-ffa3-47b8-8efc-ef109f2cfbdd

There needs to be a minimum of a 90 day gap between episodes to be counted.

[witch]

Covid rules: Schools should not defy orders to drop face masks for children in classrooms, says Nadhim Zahawi

 

This use of words really bothers me..."Defy" and "Orders" belong in sentences aimed at those in a police state or a dictatorship...

 

 

( and if Tesco can say they still want me to wear a mask, I am sure a school could too)

Edited January 28, 2022 by elsiegee40

[jmak]

This use of words really bothers me..."Defy" and "Orders" belong in sentences aimed at those in a police state or a dictatorship...

 

 

( and if Tesco can say they still want me to wear a mask, I am sure a school could too)

I know of a school that still requires face masks in lessons that's getting an Ofsted inspection next week (they're reviewing policy again at half term). It'll be interesting to see what comment they make.

 

Off topic, but when did the rules change so that schools get notified of an inspection later than Wednesday lunchtime?

[6Foot2]

NOTE: Not a political post: No political replies are expected, nor are they invited. Some individuals continue to self-medicate ("against" coronavirus) with ivermectin.

 

Link: Laurence Fox reveals he has Covid days after claiming ‘No vaccine needed, I have an immune system’ | The Independent

 

Laurence Fox has revealed he has Covid-19 days after speaking out against the vaccine.

 

On Wednesday (26 January), Fox posted a photo of himself wearing a t-shirt that read: “No vaccine needed. I have an immune system.”

 

However, on Sunday (31 January), he shared a photo of a positive lateral flow test, telling his followers: “In other news, felt shivery and crap yesterday. Turns out I have been visited by Lord Covid at last and have the Omnicold (if the LFT is to be believed!)”

 

He then raised eyebrows by revealing that his medication of choice included Ivermectin, a drug that global authorities have warned should not be taken to combat Covid.

 

Shortly after, he shared a photo of himself putting a middle finger up to the camera with a box of Ivermectin resting on his face. He suggested he bought the packet over the counter in Mexico.

 

Doctors and virologists previously warned against the use of certain drugs, including ivermectin, after controversial podcaster Joe Rogan revealed he had self-administered them following his Covid diagnosis.

 

His diagnosis also came after saying people didn’t need to get the vaccine, which prompted criticism.

 

Typically, Ivermectin is an anti-parasitic drug used to treat worms in animals. It is sometimes given to humans in small doses for scabies and other parasites, such as river blindness.

 

It has not be proven to be effective in the treatment of Covid, with FDA clearly stating that “while there are approved uses for ivermectin in people and animals, it is not approved for the prevention or treatment of Covid-19”.

 

Fox wrote on Twitter: “Not only do you only have to sign a form saying you feel well to get into Mexico, but you can also buy drugs like Ivermectin over the counter that the vaccinaholics don’t want you to get hold of here. I’m so happy to be joining the natural immunity club. Going to have a nap.”

 

In the wake of his posts, Fox’s previous comments about the vaccination were highlighted by many, with one user replying: “Guy who is against vaccines and science is relying on science to try and get better because it so happens that his immune system is not working according to his misinformation and does, in fact, need help…”

[LeMarchand]

NOTE: Not a political post: No political replies are expected, nor are they invited. Some individuals continue to self-medicate ("against" coronavirus) with ivermectin.

 

Link: Laurence Fox reveals he has Covid days after claiming ‘No vaccine needed, I have an immune system’ | The Independent

 

Does this make him Poxy Foxy?

[Duranis]

NOTE: Not a political post: No political replies are expected, nor are they invited. Some individuals continue to self-medicate ("against" coronavirus) with ivermectin.

 

Link: Laurence Fox reveals he has Covid days after claiming ‘No vaccine needed, I have an immune system’ | The Independent

 

I have no idea who this person is but it scares me that I no longer consider this kind of view point to be "a small minority".

[6Foot2]

I have no idea who this person is but it scares me that I no longer consider this kind of view point to be "a small minority".

 

He is (was?) an "actor" Perhaps best known for/as DI James Hathaway in "Lewis", the "Inspector Morse" follow-on series.

[Andrew_C]

And the twonk claims to be taking Invermectin.

 

Doesn't want the jab because he doesn't know what's in it, yet...

[Koldov]

I suppose that the counterarguments would be that those people have actively refused treatment and, in doing so, probably helped the spread of the virus rather than just harming themselves.

 

The counter-counter argument being that those individuals also actively refused to get treatment for their poor driving/nicotine addiction/alcoholism...?

 

Anyway, I find it strange that anti-vaccination is seen as a political thing... although I am aware that certain political leaders have been quite vocal and that seems to automatically tar all of that political persuasion with the same brush, I see it as less political given what we know about the demographics that have the greatest 'vaccine hesitancy'. But from far-left to far-right and from new-age hippy (or even those who say 'I'm not putting anything like that in my body') to anti-government conspiracy theorists (and those that believe Bill Gates put a microchip in the vaccine), all 'political sides' have their scale of pro and anti.

 

And here's the thing, from my very humble point of view... in their purely selfish narrative and with their lack of empathy, they actually see no real reason to get the vaccine 'for themselves'... and there's the issue. The individual mentioned above (and I have no idea who he is) would in an ideal (instant Karma/Darwinesque) world, have the disease so badly he would see the error of his ways (not that I particularly wish ill on him) - I have pondered the viability of an alternative 'therapy' for these people - Covid deniers and anit-vaxxers to do a few 12+ hour shifts on a Covid ward (a bit like shooting the Flat-Earth theory conspiracists into space). However, that is not going to work as we can see from the amount of NHS professionals who are refusing to be vaccinated, if they don't believe something that is quite plainly obvious (people dying in front of them) there is little possibility of convincing the anti-vaxxers any other way...

 

However, that individual may (as the vast majority of the population do) have mild symptoms and get over it in less than a week, so why all the fuss? This is a rhetoric I have heard from many of his ilk and will only further reinforce his point of view. But, this really does miss the actual main point of vaccination for those who are unlikely to get very ill or die (including children), which is to try and limit the spread of the disease by those who do contract it to other more vulnerable people. The death rates on the Gov.uk website for the 70+ age range shows a very steep curve (I haven't seen a breakdown of other younger but still vulnerable groups) but of course this would be expected with pretty much any disease that has life limiting potential (such as influenza). One day this may (as we may be seeing with the Omicron variant) become endemic, mutate into some less serious disease and lead to less need for healthy adults to be vaccinated, but for now I do not believe this is the case.

 

Science doesn't yet know (and may never know), why someone gets Covid and is asymptomatic (while others get very ill indeed) which is another thing that plays in to the hands of those that would deny it is any worse than some other diseases. In fact I have seen various figures ("lies, damned lies, and statistics") and although I know it is virtually impossible to accurately quantify for many reasons to get a true figure, a popular estimate of global deaths so far is something in the region of less than 0.1% and that is also something else they rely on to make their case.

[paulkerton]

Anyway, I find it strange that anti-vaccination is seen as a political thing...

... in their purely selfish narrative and with their lack of empathy, they actually see no real reason to get the vaccine 'for themselves'... and there's the issue.

So you recognise that there is a lack of empathy, and a devotion to self from anti-vax types and you don't recognise that this is a political trait of those who don't think society actually exists? Okay...

 

The counter-counter argument being that those individuals also actively refused to get treatment for their poor driving/nicotine addiction/alcoholism...?

Try lighting a cigarette in a pub, or see how many local authorities are now looking at banning cigarette smoking entirely in public. You're gonna need a better analogy.

Edited January 31, 2022 by paulkerton

[6Foot2]

And the twonk claims to be taking Invermectin...

 

In the interests of accuracy and clarity, Ivermectin was developed as an animal pharmaceutical (an antiparasitic) to combat heartworm and mite infestation in horses.

 

Later it gained approval as a human pharmaceutical to treat conditions like head lice, scabies, and river blindness: All due to parasites. Ivermectin has not been shown to be effective against coronavirus.

[Koldov]

So you recognise that there is a lack of empathy, and a devotion to self from anti-vax types and you don't recognise that this is a political trait of those who don't think society actually exists? Okay...

 

What I meant (and I thought I made it clear) was that I think you'll find 'anti-vaxxers' include various types of people from all walks of life, races, creeds, religions, and I believe they will be found in people with a range of 'political views' as well... to say that a certain person is a 'XXXX political supporter' and this therefore automatically makes them an anti-vaxxer is incorrect. Therefore, no I do not believe being 'anti-vax' is a purely political thing...

 

Try lighting a cigarette in a pub, or see how many local authorities are now looking at banning cigarette smoking entirely in public. You're gonna need a better analogy.

 

I think my analogy is sound (for the time it was written, not some proposed future) and at least as good as the analogy it was arguing against (which was the point). You refer to the legislation that was introduced for the 'greater good' (not smoking in a pub helps prevent disease from secondary inhalation), but we were talking about the individual who refuses a vaccine for themselves and therefore the smoker who refuses to give up (not the secondary causes of spreading the infection being likened to the non-smoker).

[mavhc]

To say May instead of March is forgivable - we all make mistakes. To say Dr. John Campbell's analysis includes data with a useless number is dismissive (and that's a toned down version of my thoughts!). He's well aware of comorbidities and respectfully acknowledges the numbers are real people. The comment on Step 3 befuddles me. Firstly, you weren't 'told'. Second, Youtube is just a platform for Dr. Campbell to present. In terms of 'mainstream media', he talks about BBC, ITV, C4. They are of a size to have there own means of supporting online presentation. I see nothing here that warrants a 'warning sign'.

 

If there was a simple way to 'stop letting everyone get infected', don't you seriously think those steps would be would be taken? Lockdowns and reduced socialising reduces spread, but they also have consequences. The excess deaths for cancer is stark. I had insight into this a a bit earlier than from this report. I know a corporate PHI provider with 10k global employees, and 1k in the UK, so sizeable. changes in death rates overall have not impacted them. Increased late stage cancer diagnosis has. The reasons for that are commented on by Dr. Campbell with reference to Prof. Sikora's commentary and it certainly isn't as simple as hospital's being overloaded. Long covid remains a worry for them. In a slightly morbid and stark way, in purely financial terms, long illness is more costly than death for such companies.

 

Back to the death figures you highlight, the recent 1,557 is horribly high. But, it is a sixth of the two previous peaks in early 2021 and Spring 2020. Let's celebrate what the scientists have achieved and the lives that have been saved by their work.

 

"Number of people who died with only covid" is the new conspiracy number, there's no context given, what's the number of people who only die of any 1 thing? If you don't have all the other numbers to place it in context, then you're a conspiracy nutter. The fact that those numbers weren't given is the problem.

 

If the hospitals weren't full of people with covid, then people with cancer could get treated. Pick one. You can't argue that lockdown causes cancer deaths.