EduGeek, netiquett and legal consequences

[Dos_Box]

Today I received a rather large-ish envelope form an even larger companies legal dept. The contents of that letter were page upon page of one of our members ranting about their companies products, often scattering profanity throughout their posts taken directly from our forums. The letter requested I remove them. This I have gladly done as the posts were, to be quite frank embarrassing compared to the balanced and fair views that we often use when discussing peoples products. To this end I want you all to read and digest the following points when discussing products and services between us.

 

1. If you must rant keep it clean. NO profanity will be tolerated.

 

2. Be objective. Don't slam someone's software because it runs slowly when you are tying to run it on a 400Mhz 4 MB laptop

 

3. Ensure you are\were using a product correctly before commenting negatively on it.

 

4. If you see someone ranting about a product you like then please let them know what you like about it. The RM topics are good examples of this.

 

5. If you dislike a product then list the reasons why. Don't just say 'Because it's c*ap'. This may be because of point 3

 

Running EduGeek is tough enough without having to spend half my evening deleting posts and topics for a company we like but now may take a dim view of us because of one of our members did not follow any of the points above.

[tosca925]

I'm shocked.........has this company been slated so much they have had to resort to that.

 

I wonder who it is........................?

[john]

EEK, who was the said company, can we be told?

[Dos_Box]

I'm shocked.........has this company been slated so much they have had to resort to that.

 

I wonder who it is........................?

 

They were only really slated by one person. This is why they complained, as it was very biased and unfair.

[bishopsgarthstockton]

Take it this must be RM you are talking about. in that case i appollogise, as i have made some bad comments about them. If its not them, then note taken.

 

my appologise

 

 

I am adding this so it is very clear for people scanning the thread.

 

RM have not made any legal threats against us in fact quite reverse they have been highly supportive of EduGeek.net.

 

Russell Dyas

EduGeek Admin

[Grommit]

I'm shocked.........has this company been slated so much they have had to resort to that.

 

I wonder who it is........................?

 

They were only really slated by one person. This is why they complained, as it was very biased and unfair.

 

I think this is very unfair.. Sophos had a good stable product V4 and then they decide to upgrade to a version that quite frankly is the pits to install and manage.

 

I have spoken to the helpdesk and they seem to think their product smells of roses..

 

Yet as most of us know version 6 is very frustrating and time consuming to install.. and we the ICT managers are in the front line and get the stress and abuse from the school staff . yet .. when Sophos see's that there is an issue with their product on a major ICT Technical forum.. what do they do..

 

No not chat to us and try and get their product better by talking to the ICT Technicians and Managers.... No... they get all heavy...

 

I guess I'll have to find a new AV company then..

[_Bat_]

I was not aware that ANY company could do this anyway? What legal rights do they have over this forum? I don't see where they get right to demand you remove it to be honest... it's like demanding that a review of their products on a review website be removed because it says bad stuff about the product...

 

Or am I looking at this the wrong way?

 

EDIT: I take it that it is sophos then? Threatening a forum filled with with their customers with legal action isn't the way I'd have chosen to handle things... I have no problems with their software, I quite like it in fact, but if it is them, I'll be seeing them in a different light in future.

[Geoff]

I was not aware that ANY company could do this anyway? What legal rights do they have over this forum? I don't see where they get right to demand you remove it to be honest... it's like demanding that a review of their products on a review website be removed because it says bad stuff about the product...

 

It's called libel, and your analogy is broken. A 'review website' would not fall foul of this because they would justify why they came to such a conclusion. 'Justification' is a valid defence in libel cases under English law.

[Grommit]

It is not slander or Libel is a a person expresses his own opinion...

 

And that was the opinion expressed by someone because he thinks that a product is pants.

 

It should say at the bottom of the board that the opinions expressed in this forum are not the opinions of the owners...

 

Standard practice..

Oh dear Geoff... wonder how Top Gear is not being taken to court every week for Libel as they slag off those cars far worse than anything on this board

[CheeseDog]

I believe any company would be well covered under libel law. The same goes for criticising a work colleague.

 

Anything you write down here (or any other forum) you have to be prepared to back up in court.

 

(Just like writing somebody a bad job reference.)

 

I'm no expert on these things but I beleive you can also get done for repeating somebody elses comments. (See BBC vs Labour)

[_Bat_]

It's called libel, and your analogy is broken. A 'review website' would not fall foul of this because they would justify why they came to such a conclusion. 'Justification' is a valid defence in libel cases under English law.

 

That's true. However I still don't think their actions are morally correct and I also don't believe whichever company it is has done themselves any favours. As Grommit said, actually discussing the threads with their customers and trying to figure out why their products got such bad "reviews" as opposed to purely focusing on their image would have gotten them much more kudos.

[Geoff]

It is not slander or Libel is a a person expresses his own opinion...

 

Ok, let me get my Osboure big book of English civil law out..

 

English law allows actions for libel to be brought in the High Court for any published statements which are alleged to defame a named or identifiable individual or individuals in a manner which causes them loss in their trade or profession, or causes a reasonable person to think worse of him, her or them.

 

So given the audience of these forums, I'd expect 'loss of trade' to apply don't you think? And before you pull the 'it doesn't count because it's on the internet' Ace out your sleeve, have a look at Keith Smith v Williams.

 

And that was the opinion expressed by someone because he thinks that a product is pants.

 

This isn't sufficient legally. One must be able to prove that the statement is true ('Justification' as I mentioned before), or that it is a view that any reasonable person could hold ('Fair Comment'). There's a third one too ('Privilege'), but it doesn't really apply to this sort of situation.

 

Also be aware the normal 'innocent until proven guilty' state is reversed for libel cases. It's up to the defendant to disprove the libel allegation rather than the other way round.

 

 

It should say at the bottom of the board that the opinions expressed in this forum are not the opinions of the owners

 

It does (sort of), and this doesn't legally matter anyway.

[Joedetic]

You're not an ICT technician you're a lawyer!!

[_Bat_]

You're not an ICT technician you're a lawyer!!

 

Come on, we all know Geoff isn't a technician. He is a bot with a knowledgebase 15 times the size of wikipedia .

[russdev]

lol

 

Wasn't RM the funny thing is RM is one company that works very hard to be involved in EduGeek.

 

The fact is be it law or not law we haven't massive funds to fight this kind of thing. We can most of time deal with these issues with out someone getting there legal department involved.

 

Russell

[beeswax]

It is not slander or Libel is a a person expresses his own opinion...

 

And that was the opinion expressed by someone because he thinks that a product is pants.

 

It should say at the bottom of the board that the opinions expressed in this forum are not the opinions of the owners...

 

It may be that person's opinion, but it could still represent a libel if that opinion is untrue or cannot be substantiated.

 

Edugeek is not a hermetically sealed community, we're not discussing things over a beer in the pub, "just between the two of us", but for the most part we have a large audience. Now it may seem to you (not you personally, Grommit) that your opinion is worthy, but if it causes extra work for all the Edugeek staff, on top of the marvellous efforts they put in here, then think, "Can I back this up"? or am I just having a bad hair day?

[Grommit]

It is not slander or Libel is a a person expresses his own opinion...

 

And that was the opinion expressed by someone because he thinks that a product is pants.

 

It should say at the bottom of the board that the opinions expressed in this forum are not the opinions of the owners...

 

It may be that person's opinion, but it could still represent a libel if that opinion is untrue or cannot be substantiated.

 

Edugeek is not a hermetically sealed community, we're not discussing things over a beer in the pub, "just between the two of us", but for the most part we have a large audience. Now it may seem to you (not you personally, Grommit) that your opinion is worthy, but if it causes extra work for all the Edugeek staff, on top of the marvellous efforts they put in here, then think, "Can I back this up"? or am I just having a bad hair day?

 

Always put it down to bad hair day mate....

 

Taliking about bad hair days.. I see someone is trying to relaunch the rock band Saxon... 8O

[mattx]

I feel I must say something as most of this has got to do with me anyhoo.

 

After my rantings & VERY strong comments - Sophos actually rang me on a number of occasions, missing me a few times but then managing to get hold of me. One of their Development team spoke to me [ at length ] and it was decided that I gather up mine and other people's issues with it etc, [ see a thread in the security section ] I then mail it off to an addresse supplied - which I did - [ about 4 weeks ago ] Thing is I have not heard anything since. Is it worth sending again - after this I'm not sure.

Oh well.

 

Now the last thing I want is Edugeek to get into any sort of libel / court case as it helps a great deal of schools - so I am surprised at the approach Sophos has taken. I am a firm believer in free speech and having an opinion - no matter how you express it. You only have to watch Have I Got News For You to hear things worse !!

I disagree with Sophos's Bully Boy tactics but like I said earlier, the last thing I want to see is the owners of Edugeek get in any sort of trouble over this. Would Microsoft threaten a forum with this type of action ? Many people have things to say about their OS's etc on this forum - ok not as bad as what I have said about Sophos but things which may seem libel all the same. For them [ Sophos ] to threaten a forum which helps other people just because ONE person [ ME ] happens to rant and say nasty things about their product is a little surprising. People can make up their own minds about products I would like to think, not take on board one person's rantings who even when I read them back are OTT !! Still thats the way they have played it and whats done is done.

I won't [ and now never will ] change my opinions on Sophos and their products & support, but for the sake of this forum I won't comment on them further.

I hope this post makes things a little clearer.

Anyway - thats my side

[localzuk]

I think the issue isn't one of whether or not they were libeled but a case of whether or not we, as a group, are presenting ourselves in a professional manner. Would we respect a group of people if they ranted without proper justification about something we do? Probably not. In order for us to be taken seriously as a group we need to be professional, and when we have a gripe give full details of the problem. We all feel like screaming and using the LART on the creators of some of our equipment and suppliers of services but in such a public place we have to have some amount decorum - an example, would we sit in a conference and rant in front of 2500 people about how terrible something is without full reasoning?

 

So, rather than us thinking about this in a legal way, we should take it on the chin and move on.

[TechMonkey]

But you have to think that Edugeek is very successful (well I think it is) and having lots of comments saying company x is rubbish steer clear, blah blah blah, has the potential to be seen by lots of people in the business (so not even as if this is just a general forum that some random person has said something) could well see. Think of the number of "recommend me an ...." thread or even the "is ..... any good?" threads. Peoples decisions are being made based on info here.

 

To turn it around, would you not feel slightly aggreived if a pupil came on here or a job site specific to Edugeeks and repeatedly made general claims against someone, insinuating all sorts and even dancing around some alegation? I would think anyone would be justified in asking for the comments to be removed due to it possibly affecting your prospects and reputation.

[Disease]

Censorship at it's best, welcome to the technical discussion forum where you can discuss anything as long as it does not upset anyone, seems to be becoming a trend in life now

 

That said I can understand the concerns of the Edugeek staff I just get hacked off with censorship.

[Jake]

Legally libellous (is that even a word??), or not, personally I find it disgusting that a company can prevent people saying bad things about them/their products. Thats not a comment on Edugeek, its more a comment on how stupid things are in general.

 

I am one of those people who believe that if my opinion is that a movie, or book, or game or product is crap, I will darn well say its crap. Certainly I have said many movies and books and games are crap

 

However..knowing that the ridiculous laws of our land can cause problems in the regard of speaking ones mind, I just dont do it on this forum anymore. Hence why the vast majority of my posts are meaningless drivel, and usually joke posts rather than anything even vaguely serious about my career and its ups and downs.

 

Although its a pity that I cant really use this forum for more serious thoughts, including maybe even the occasional rant, it does however make a good forum for just pissing around on

[Dos_Box]

I think you are all failing to grasp how this works. If a poster says 'Product x is ****' with no valid reasons why or expination behind their commenst then it can be considered liable (especially when mixed in with immature playground profanity).

If, however, you say 'Product x is rubbish because of x y z' givinf a list a reasons yo think are valid then that is acceptable. Afetr all, you would not lie it id someone walked around your neighbourhood telling all and sundry that you are a junkie with zero evidence to back it up, would you?

They are in a multi million pound (dollar, Euro etc) industry and they have a hell of a lot to loes to this kind of comment. As I've said. Keep it relevent and back up your claims with evidance, not heresay and insults.

[StewartKnight]

Can we change the BETT fund to Get Dos_Box out of jail fund?

[petectid]

I would not have been concerned it’s just a company using scare tactics. Libel is very difficult and expensive to take to court, even if what is expressed by an individual in this forum seems to put a product or company in bad light, the company still have to prove to the court that your comments have changed the opinion of others.