Apple: Love it or hate it.

[localzuk]

I have an AV installed at home and never have it switched on, except for a full scan i run every 1-2 montohs. It's been like that for about 4 years now without incident.

 

And I'd never suggest a normal non-IT home user goes without one regardless of the computer or OS they are using. I know what I'm downloading, i never click on stuff I don't know, and I know how to fix anything that crops up when it shouldn't.

AV's offer peace of mind for those who don't know any better.

 

Hell, you can even get AV's for your phone now because "people" are dumb and click links they shouldn't.

 

I use Windows and don't get viruses or malware because I use Anti-Virus/Anti-Spyware (both free versions). I've begun to think that users are at fault for most virus infections.

 

Also, if it was reversed and 90% of computer users used a Mac, I'm sure there would be plenty more viruses knocking around.

 

Are either of you NORMAL users? No. You're IT professionals.

[dayzd]

In general i dislike some of apple's practices. If i want to access the hard drive of the thing i've paid for, I should be able to do so. When I get an update, I want to update what I need to, not reinstall the whole damned software package. They treat most users as either imbeciles or abusers and anarchists. If it's simple they'll dress it in daisies and sunflowers. If it's complex and technical they'll make it as hard as possible to do it.

That is part of what makes Apple so popular. They remove the complications and abstract things so far for the benefit of the average user, who doesn't care what size swap file they have, or what services are running at startup. They make things easy.

Which is why, for many users on here, who are more advanced users and won't use anything they can't tweak and control, that Macs can be so frustrating. They feel dumbed-down. Almost 'My first computer'-like.

For your average 'email/Facebook/Tesco online' user, Apple makes it easy to do what you want and removes any options that might allow you to break it. Apple's 'just work' because the important stuff is hidden away, away from fat-fingered users, ready to click the wrong thing!

 

And as yet, I've not seen a concrete reason for why a normal person SHOULD go for an apple over a PC. Some do, and they'll generally shout it's praises, but very few can give a good, technical and/or financial reason for getting one.

Does there have to be? There's very often a part of the purchasing decision that comes down to personal preference. Continuing the thread with cars... As said above, why buy a 4-seater BMW saloon for £25kish, when you can have a Mondeo for £18k or however much they cost?

 

Take their cost out of the equation and you level the playing field of this discussion drastically.

[LosOjos]

Are either of you NORMAL users? No. You're IT professionals.

 

And Apple know how to cash in on peoples lack of knowledge.

[LosOjos]

One thing I will give Apple is they do make very stylish products, I however am not willing to pay such a high premium for the sake of style (which is essentially where all these sports car/family saloon comparisons seem to be going)

[Rydra]

For your average 'email/Facebook/Tesco online' user, Apple makes it easy to do what you want and removes any options that might allow you to break it. Apple's 'just work' because the important stuff is hidden away, away from fat-fingered users, ready to click the wrong thing!

I agree with you here, that they have an appeal to those who just want something out of the box that works, and can't be easily fiddled with and broken. In fact, on those grounds alone, I could recommend one to somebody!

 

Does there have to be? There's very often a part of the purchasing decision that comes down to personal preference. Continuing the thread with cars... As said above, why buy a 4-seater BMW saloon for £25kish, when you can have a Mondeo for £18k or however much they cost?

Take their cost out of the equation and you level the playing field of this discussion drastically.

 

And this is the reason I do not... I could easily suggest that everyone should drive 4x4's with estate type chassis for normal use; they are big enough to carry everything you want, and never have a problem with the weather. But if you only go 2 miles down the road with 2 kids, a corsa is more than enough for them!

By the same reasoning, a Mac might be easier, and possibly more suited to a rounded family as the 'home PC'. But when you can buy 2 laptops for the price of one mac, I just can't really warrant it myself, and most people I speak to who want a home computer, don't want to spend that on a single machine for email/tesco/itunes.

[HallX]

And if you desire a Rover, you are clinically insane.

 

I want a P5, from when Rovers were motor cars.

[aerospacemango]

I want a P5, from when Rovers were motor cars.

 

I've seen a Rover 2600 SD1, in beautiful condition....I'd have one of those!

 

It's a "D" plate...and my garage reckon that the owner would practically give it away!

 

Just gotta persuade the missus that I need such a beautiful car!!

[featured_spectre]

Well said rydra. I find that many people want macs because of the status symbol attached. Main bulk of reasons are along the lines of "it is expensive so it must be good".

 

Not always the case. Another example is alienware as well as mac...for the same price I can build a better pc. Mac screw everyone in terms of OS though as they dnt want it installed on anything but their branded machines.

[aerospacemango]

Oh....and one of my favourite pastimes is winding up my brother about his Apple fixation.....

 

I'm pretty ambivalent except for the walled garden rubbish!

 

But, I certainly wouldn't spend £2000 on something that I could build for £1000-£1200....That just wouldn't make sense!

[Disease]

Are either of you NORMAL users? No. You're IT professionals.

 

Hey Less of the professional pal!!!!!!

[HallX]

Just gotta persuade the missus that I need such a beautiful car!!

 

Thats always the problem

[Guest Guest]

But, I certainly wouldn't spend £2000 on something that I could build for £1000-£1200....That just wouldn't make sense!

 

Just for information I've just built a i7 950, 6gb, HD6950 (*cough* soon to be 6970 *cough*), etc etc for around £750. So even with a decent spec monitor it'll come in at under a grand.

[localzuk]

Hey Less of the professional pal!!!!!!

 

Well, obviously, there are some exceptions

[SYNACK]

Not comming down on the side of Apple here as I simply can't bring myself to but in regard to the original post there is a big difference. The Mac Pro supports multiple CPUs which can scale out better than a single one. The i7 can't be an SMP solution as far as I know as it lack support for SMP so you are limited to just the one, same with the Athlon instead of the Opteron, the big differentiator is SMP support.

 

As to the 'buying a whole solution' comment I have to disagree with the fundementals of that a little as a comparison. Your average PC also comes with Windows standard from almost anywhere, this is about custom builds but with the right OEM deals it is massivly discounted. This used to include all sorts of stuff right out of the box untill uptight governments got involved and made them strip it all out. Most of the good stuff is still free to download, live tools and MSE for example they just can't bundle it. The whole bundleing thing is just a politics matter rather than a technical one.

 

It really is a case of different tools for different jobs and the fact is that there is a huge whole in Apples lineup right where it would benifit their users the most in the midrange but upgradable area, its either proprietary difficult un-upgradable form factors or the top of the line most expencive thing they could put together without calling it a server.

 

At any rate the neg repping is getting a little out of hand and it is not intended to show disagrement. From the sounds of it it has been more than ballanced out by positive rep from others but if you do have real concerns about malicious or insulting negitive rep then please report the post that was repped with a note about the problematic rep comment.

[Little-Miss]

Mac VS PC, it's like 2 women fighting.....best not to get involved....

[mac_shinobi]

Not comming down on the side of Apple here as I simply can't bring myself to but in regard to the original post there is a big difference. The Mac Pro supports multiple CPUs which can scale out better than a single one. The i7 can't be an SMP solution as far as I know as it lack support for SMP so you are limited to just the one, same with the Athlon instead of the Opteron, the big differentiator is SMP support.

 

As to the 'buying a whole solution' comment I have to disagree with the fundementals of that a little as a comparison. Your average PC also comes with Windows standard from almost anywhere, this is about custom builds but with the right OEM deals it is massivly discounted. This used to include all sorts of stuff right out of the box untill uptight governments got involved and made them strip it all out. Most of the good stuff is still free to download, live tools and MSE for example they just can't bundle it. The whole bundleing thing is just a politics matter rather than a technical one.

 

It really is a case of different tools for different jobs and the fact is that there is a huge whole in Apples lineup right where it would benifit their users the most in the midrange but upgradable area, its either proprietary difficult un-upgradable form factors or the top of the line most expencive thing they could put together without calling it a server.

 

At any rate the neg repping is getting a little out of hand and it is not intended to show disagrement. From the sounds of it it has been more than ballanced out by positive rep from others but if you do have real concerns about malicious or insulting negitive rep then please report the post that was repped with a note about the problematic rep comment.

 

Agree with linux girlie ( missing link between linux and windows ) - I do agree on the pricing being quite a bit more then it used to be - I remember the 17" iMac being about £1200 or so and they then upgraded to 20" screen, better graphics card, more RAM, larger hard drive and some other bits ( better chipset / cpu ) I think and they still charged the same.

 

Now There is such a steep jump between the different models and if I re call correctly the low end iMac used to be less then 1,000, now the cheapest one is £1020 so almost £80 more ( must be a combination between having to pay more for electronics and the increase in VAT by 2.5%

 

If you take the main features that were meant to make each OS ( windows vs mac OS ) - from what I can tell and I could be wrong on some points ( will see soon enough ) Mac OS seems to be ahead of windows as windows seems to copy OS X ( iCal - how it appears, the search text field ) there are some features in windows 7 that are nice but not jaw dropping.

 

Lets just take one feature ( that from what I can gather is done in linux, Mac OS ) but not windows the filing system with regards to it keeping everything indexed and not just dumping data randomly scattering it every where there is room or space.

 

I think Vista when in pre release ( beta ) was meant to have SQL of some description to keep a database of where everything was, this got dumped / scrapped straight away.

 

We all know all the weak points of windows ref explorer process, registry to name a few

 

Macs still have some down points and hardware wise is behind to a degree but I have had my Early 2008 Mac Pro ( 2 * quad cores , etc ,etc ) since august 2008 and the only time I have had to re install was when I was upgrading from Leopard to Snow leopard ( 10.5 to 10.6 respectively ) as apposed to having to re install windows every 6 months or so along with running AV, Anti malware, Firewalls etc constantly so constantly wasting CPU / Resources on running all that extra gumph software.

 

I tried on OS X running AV software but it seemed pointless as I never had any issues before nor do I have any issues for not running any AV, I do run clam XAV now and again but even so I have never picked up anything or have found anything.

 

No I am not being naive as I do know now that apple have moved to Intel there must be people who will want to target apple as it gets more and more popular

[sidewinder]

A lot of people buy Macs because of the status (eg my Dad) I groaned when he went out and bought one. However, the cries for help from him have dropped 90% from when he had his PC (a decent quad core Dell system)

I'm not saying they are more reliable, but for a lot of users they are the complete package - they come with everything they need, and are usually harder to break from fiddling.

 

Doesn't justify the prices mind, which are rather on the high side. Not so much the workstation end, but the budget end. £600 for the cheapest desktop and £800ish for the cheapest laptop is far too much.

However I use a 2006 iMac and a 2008 MacBook, both run all the latest software still (albeit the iMac needed a RAM upgrade) and should be fine for a few years to come yet. I'd struggle to get 7 years out of a PC if I wanted to stay up to date.

I personally prefer to use them at home because they are relatively hassle free. Certainly not hassle free in a school environment though, they need the same amount of support as the PC's do.

 

It's still just a personal choice, some people prefer PC's, some people prefer Mac's, some people don't know what they prefer and just buy into Apple because of the hype...but I would imagine most are happy with their purchase even if they could be using a far cheaper PC to send their emails and download photos of their kids. That's why Apple can continue to charge what they do, as long as the advertising and hype continues to do its job.

Edited January 13, 2011 by sidewinder

[dayzd]

That's why Apple can continue to charge what they do, as long as the advertising and hype continues to do its job.

 

And if there's anything Apple know, it's how to work the hype machine...

[sted]

And if there's anything Apple know, it's how to work the hype machine...

 

well yes they ought to pay the bbc etc everytime a new phone/pad/pod other walled garden device comes out you can barely turn on a tv/radio for hearing about the damned things

[SYNACK]

well yes they ought to pay the bbc etc everytime a new phone/pad/pod other walled garden device comes out you can barely turn on a tv/radio for hearing about the damned things

 

Yes, that particularly winds me up. State run networks spewing Apple stories everywhere for days as opposed to the occasional twenty five second story about Android or Windows Phone, it is so one sided and I don't feel that taxpayers should be funding Apple advertising becacuse of the medias little fettish.

[GrumbleDook]

Folk know my preference and I have spoken about being happy using whatever is in front of me several times, but *my* mac setup allows me to be more productive ... I've done a comparison swap back to windows and spent time on Ubuntu as well ... it is partly me and partly just one of those things.

 

There are lots of things I don't agree with Apple about ... yes, some machines are over-specced / under-priced ... some machines have been an absolute disaster ... but most are good, have lasted longer (both in hardware and usability) then most windows PCs I have had.

 

There are many who love or hate Macs or Apple who will just take offence at what the other side say. If that is the case feel free to move on ... most of us on here who like and use macs are intelligent human beings are have made a choice. There are lots of wonderful arguments with points, but it gets into being like politics. Some times an opinion or preference is a personal thing. Trying to quantify things purely logically is just not going to work.

 

As for the rep issue ... if I say something that someone does not agree with and they neg rep me then I take that on the chin, the same way I appreciate those that either give me thanks or give me pos rep. Malicious rep will get spotted so by all means speak with mods / admins ... but I gave up worrying about it a while ago. You sometimes get neg rep for *not* taking a position (and you also get splinters).

[dayzd]

Yes, that particularly winds me up. State run networks spewing Apple stories everywhere for days as opposed to the occasional twenty five second story about Android or Windows Phone, it is so one sided and I don't feel that taxpayers should be funding Apple advertising becacuse of the medias little fettish.

 

I don't imagine it's as intended as that. The BBC are just getting caught up in the media hype along with everyone else - they'd be accused of not reporting properly if they didn't cover Apple launches. Plus, when Apple announces something they call groundbreaking, or a 'game changer', for whatever reason, they're normally right, making it newsworthy.

[maark]

On a slightly different tack - anyone noticed how little Apple stuff there is at bett this year?

Are Apple making too much money from ipods/ipads and consumer stuff to bother with education?

[Fatmas]

On a slightly different tack - anyone noticed how little Apple stuff there is at bett this year?

Are Apple making too much money from ipods/ipads and consumer stuff to bother with education?

 

Maybe it boils down to price again? A lot of school budgets are being hit very hard for next year so with PC based systems and virtualisation, maybe Apple realised that cannot compete with the price point a lot of other companies use.

[jamesb]

I'm just a little curious about a comparison made earlier in the thread. How many people would select a 'status' car (such as a BMW) over a cheaper, more practical car - potentially with better performance and much cheaper (though potentially more regular) maintenance? I'm really starting to think that the whole debate is caused by a fundamental difference in the way that people perceive value (incidentally, I'm on the anti-Apple side, but that's my natural dislike of designer branding coming in to play, so is a biased opinion).