Apple: Love it or hate it.

[Rydra]

Ok, so I'm going to start one of these.... I'm not here to apple bash, I like them in their own place, but i've heard a lot of yay/naying on it recently and felt like voicing my thoughts without derailing other threads....

 

I built my own PC at the end of last year.

 

Core I7 950 3GHz Quad core

Gigabyte UD7 mobo

6GB DDR3 memory

1.5TB SATA 6Gb/S drive

Sapphire ATI Radeon 5870

Blue Ray RW drive

new Case and 100W Corsair PSU.

plus Windows 7 Pro

 

total cost just shy of £1400.

 

Now I'm a heavy gamer, and it's fair to say I'm engrained in MS tech, and have been for most of my life. My first PC was DOS and Win 3.11, and i've worked along and up as i've got older.

 

I don't really do and media work beyond tinkering with some screenshots or the odd digital photo from my phone or compact camera. I also tend to prefer a machine i can upgrade over time to help keep up with the times without replacing the whole PC, eg memory, graphics, hard drive, and occasionally CPU...

 

So if I take a look at what I can get from Apple that as closely as possible matches what I bought....

 

I looked at the Mac Pro, as it's unfair to compare to macbooks or imac's.

 

Now there are 2 base models, and since it's starting price was £2000, I went for that one...

So i customise the machine to closer match what I got already... CPU is a xeon instead of Core i7 and is slower by 0.2GHz.

I can match the memory and the graphics card, but cannot get a 6gb/s hard drive, so go for a 1TB SATA 3gb one.

Apple do not support blue ray at this time, still, so cannot get one of these added either.

I leave off all addons (except for the display port converters )and support options, and the total cost comes to: £2450.

 

£1100 in difference.

So you can argue, that Mac OSX comes with some stuff bundled.... OK so lets add a few bits of software to the Windows PC...

 

Full Nero 10 suite with Blue ray support: £60

Let's add Cyberlink PowerDVD 10 as well: £55

I'll also add Cubase Studio 5: £300

and let's add Serif Photo and Draw Plus X2: £100

 

So we're still £500-600 under the price of the mac, with software that should cover most if not all of what a basic mac has, and in some respects exceeds it.

 

If you wanted to do full video editing or really go into photo manipulation etc, then arguably Final Cut Pro is enough of a reason to want a mac, and Adobe CS works on both platforms.

 

But as a bog standard home user, who wants a home pc to play with, work with the family video's, play some music, touch up the holiday pictures.... as a gamer it's generally inadviseable, though with steam now porting to mac this is improving...

 

I just cannot see, beyond the specialist role, how/why a Mac is better than a normal PC, especially not to the cost of £500-1000 extra. I can do 95% of what that mac does for 1/2-2/3 of the price.

[featured_spectre]

http://varadarajbhat.files.wordpress.com/2010/09/mac01.jpg enough said

[Fatmas]

A very well worded argument and sums up almost perfectly the reason why I stick with "PC" based systems.

 

I know you can get the Macs that have the monitor built in but for £220 you can get a 24" monitor as well.

Also I'm guessing you meant a 1000W PSU rather than 100W?

[featured_spectre]

thanks to whoever neg rep'd me.

 

For what MACs are, that picture is a great argument.

 

But I agree they are better for video editing and such like simply for the specialist software designed for it!

[localzuk]

Not enough said. Stop perpetuating this nonsense! YOU ARE BUYING A COMPLETE SYSTEM, INCLUDING AN OPERATING SYSTEM, AND A PACK OF SOFTWARE!

 

You are not buying off the shelf components and sticking them together and hoping they work well. You are buying a custom designed machine, with components that have been tested and are guaranteed to work together, with the Apple OS which has taken many years to develop, and is arguably better than Windows in many ways.

 

The upgrade costs are comparable to those charged by companies like HP. Go get one of their workstation machines and see how much a hard disk upgrade is, or a processor upgrade. The RAM, for example, in the Mac Pro is ECC RAM, not your usual cheapo stuff. It is server grade RAM.

 

So, please, before posting threads like this, think about it!

 

To the OP, you are comparing an i7 machine with Xeon which isn't even in the same ball park. You are comparing a 'home user' machine with a 'workstation'.

 

Apple do not make a non-all-in-one machine designed for normal home users.

 

As I mentioned in another article. When the Lotus Elise came out, it used a Rover 1.8L engine. The same engine that was used in the Rover 25/45/75. Same engine, VERY different cars.

 

PS. It wasn't me who neg-repped.

[sted]

by the same token you could say bmws are bad as you can get all the same equipment in a ford fiesta for much less (even comparing a 3 series to a mondeo)

 

its right tool for right job (and to an extend percieved right tool for right job)

 

persnoannly i find macs annoying to use but thats probably because im so used to windows and some things you take for granted in windows macs just dont do the same/at all and im sure the reverse is true. My main issue is why as it is pc hardware cant i buy osx as an os for my homebuilt pc and dual boot rather than having to buy an apple shiny box

[Luke_T]

anyone have a side by side comparison of workstation machines based on the apple spec?

 

ie: a like for like comparison with a Windows PC from HP / Dell / etc ...

 

might do that tonight for fun .... urgh too sad for words am I

[dwhyte85]

I dislike most Mac users, I don't mind the hardware though...

[2097]

Not enough said. Stop perpetuating this nonsense! YOU ARE BUYING A COMPLETE SYSTEM, INCLUDING AN OPERATING SYSTEM, AND A PACK OF SOFTWARE!

 

You are not buying off the shelf components and sticking them together and hoping they work well. You are buying a custom designed machine, with components that have been tested and are guaranteed to work together, with the Apple OS which has taken many years to develop, and is arguably better than Windows in many ways.

 

The upgrade costs are comparable to those charged by companies like HP. Go get one of their workstation machines and see how much a hard disk upgrade is, or a processor upgrade. The RAM, for example, in the Mac Pro is ECC RAM, not your usual cheapo stuff. It is server grade RAM.

 

So, please, before posting threads like this, think about it!

 

To the OP, you are comparing an i7 machine with Xeon which isn't even in the same ball park. You are comparing a 'home user' machine with a 'workstation'.

 

Apple do not make a non-all-in-one machine designed for normal home users.

 

As I mentioned in another article. When the Lotus Elise came out, it used a Rover 1.8L engine. The same engine that was used in the Rover 25/45/75. Same engine, VERY different cars.

 

PS. It wasn't me who neg-repped.

 

I fail to understand the reference to the lotus elise . how is it relevant ? all you have said was it used a K series rover engine ?

[featured_spectre]

wow 3 neg reps for my post! good going guys! if you wanna neg rep me, have the cajones to say who you are and why, rather than just saying "rubbish" and leaving it at that.

 

Anyways...I am not anti-apple, but having taken one apart (not too long ago), they do use standard parts (apart from mobo and ram which as stated are close to server spec!!).

 

Whilst I agree the OS is better than windows, you will find the world uses windows apart from the specialist apps which I have already said! I have nothing against apple, just have problems that they charge extortionate prices for mostly standard parts and then put their logo on it!! And yes I know Dell and HP do the same, which is why I dont use them either!

[dayzd]

I fail to understand the reference to the lotus elise . how is it relevant ? all you have said was it used a K series rover engine ?

The point with the Elise comment is that you can have the same/comparable components in two very different systems - so different they are almost not worth comparing to each other. Clarified further by Sted:

by the same token you could say bmws are bad as you can get all the same equipment in a ford fiesta for much less

 

Lots of cars have the same spec on paper (engine capacity/bhp, seats, stereo, aircon etc) but they don't all add up to the same experience when you use them.

 

I know how frustrating Macs can be to an experienced Windows user who has never used one before, but also know that if you give them a chance, they can be enjoyable to use. Ultimately, it's a choice. An objective decision with no right or wrong answer, so I have no idea why we need threads like these...

[Guest Guest]

To the OP, you are comparing an i7 machine with Xeon which isn't even in the same ball park.

 

Yes they are

Bloomfield (microprocessor) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gainestown_%28microprocessor%29#Nehalem-based_Xeon

 

Its funny isnt it, you say "So, please, before posting threads like this, think about it!" yet you don't think about your post...

Edited January 12, 2011 by Guest

[localzuk]

I fail to understand the reference to the lotus elise . how is it relevant ? all you have said was it used a K series rover engine ?

 

The engine is a comparison of an off the shelf component. ie. the engine in a Lotus Elise makes one of the most desirable sports cars on the market, with superb handling, excellent build quality and great looks. The same engine in a Rover 45 makes a middle of the pack, boring, car.

[Rydra]

Ok, so I built my PC by hand....

 

You can buy a Dell system, essentially the same specs as I built for £1500-1600. That is both their XPS high end work stations and their alienware gaming systems.

 

and if you want to compare the imac's, the highest spec one they do is the only one that matches what i bought, and still costs £2000+. And then you still have an item that is difficult to upgrade, with heavy limits on what you can upgrade.

 

If you look at the lower end, you can buy a basic desktop for £350, the nearest to that from apple is the mac mini at £600+.

 

Laptops, they start at £870 from apple for their lowest. My aunt just bought a lenovo one for £360.

 

So again, why would a 'normal' home user want one over a PC? Most of what you can do with a mac you can now do in windows 7, and what you can't do you can get software that does it for minimal cost. They are generally too expensive for standard home family user, wont do what a teenage gamer wants to do without fiddling, and too expensive for most high end users, unless they are specialising in media work?

 

If it's a 'status' thing for showing off then fine, you're paying for that. Bundled software? Sure, except you can still buy software that does the same thing for a lot less for the PC, or if your good with google, go open source and a lot of it is free. Reliability? I bought a new PC because the old one, was old... It had been running almost solidly for 3 years, and apart from a fried graphics card, was still running as well at the end of 3 years as it was when i got it.

My parents have a 10 year old TIME pc, that albeit is running a bit slow now, but is still going.

 

i have used apples, in fact i borrowed one for my honeymoon as it was smaller/lighter than the 19" laptop i had at the time. And for uploading photo's, and browsing the net, yeah it worked, and easily. But I didn't pay the £950 for it in the first place.

 

But for the ability to upload pictures to facebook, itunes, and video editing that can be done with a £50 suite off the shelf, for half the price, I'm really not seeing it here.

 

Apple to me is like the David Blaine of the computer world; they have extravagant stunts that look great, but when you really get down to it, they are living in their own little world and most of what they do is trickery and mind tricks.

[Fatmas]

wow 3 neg reps for my post! good going guys! if you wanna neg rep me, have the cajones to say who you are and why, rather than just saying "rubbish" and leaving it at that.

 

I didn't think reputation was supposed to be used if you disagree with the opinion of a member. Nephilim posted a picture which I thought was relevant to the discussion at hand. Don't negative rep someone if you don't agree with their opinion. If he had flamed the OP or said something insulting that would be different but he didn't even create that picture.

 

Apple Macs and Windows PC's are different, I personally would always prefer building my own PC and in my opinion saving some money in the process. However, Apple has proven they can produce decent equipment and Mac's are very often preferred in certain fields such as media work.

[Fatmas]

The engine is a comparison of an off the shelf component. ie. the engine in a Lotus Elise makes one of the most desirable sports cars on the market, with superb handling, excellent build quality and great looks. The same engine in a Rover 45 makes a middle of the pack, boring, car.

 

I understand the reference but it could be expanded to say that the reason the lotus is desirable is not the engine but the aesthetics and the chassis. The same engine delivers a better performing car because the weight is greatly reduced because of size and lack of features.

 

They also cost a lot more than a Rover 45 but I would have the Lotus every time (if I could afford it!).

 

Apple's design and the aesthetics of their systems are what sell a large portion of them I would say.

[Rydra]

Unfortunately you can flip that around....

 

You can buy a car that on the outside looks like a top notch car, but in reality you can buy the same thing underneath from another manufacturer, for half the price, and live with the fact that your dashboard is made out of actual plastic rather than plastic made out to look like wood.

 

Skoda and VW are getting a little like this, except skoda still cut corners in other places than aesthetics. Same chassis and insides, different skin and shinier bits attached to it.

[linuxgirlie]

Hmmm this is a hard one, I had a Mac mini for a while and it was very very nice, though it only cost me £300 so no where near the costings of the high-end Macs. For the hardware I couldn't believe how fast it was, the loading times were amazing for something that had such little power, in the end I sold it as I didn't use it as much as I could of, but sometimes I miss it, as I found it was the missing link between Windows and Linux....easy to use but stable.

 

Saying that if we take out the OS and Software part of things I would go with a PC, the reason being I know I can build a PC from scratch for a tiny price and much faster system, but that is only any good for us tinkers and not your average person.

 

But to be honest, in an ideal world, if it worked I would go for a PC running Apple OS, sounds crazy but I would be very happy with that setup.

[Hightower]

the engine in a Lotus Elise makes one of the most desirable sports cars on the market

 

Most desirable sports car on the market?! Sheeeesh, you ought to get out more localzuk! I can think of 100 cars I'd have before the Elise, and a Rover might indeed be one of them!

[localzuk]

Most desirable sports car on the market?! Sheeeesh, you ought to get out more localzuk! I can think of 100 cars I'd have before the Elise, and a Rover might indeed be one of them!

 

One of... And if you desire a Rover, you are clinically insane.

[painejake]

Mac Mini was the best computer purchase I made. As was my iPhone. Hell I'll admit it I'm a massive Apple fanboy.

 

My Mac Mini still starts faster than a top spec i7 rig though!

 

What linuxgirlie said summed it up really. For me it is the missing link between Windows and Linux.

[Rydra]

In general i dislike some of apple's practices. If i want to access the hard drive of the thing i've paid for, I should be able to do so. When I get an update, I want to update what I need to, not reinstall the whole damned software package. They treat most users as either imbeciles or abusers and anarchists. If it's simple they'll dress it in daisies and sunflowers. If it's complex and technical they'll make it as hard as possible to do it.

Maybe i've just had bad experiences in a world of good ones, but the two things I have to go on are my own experiences and what I can discover from other's experiences.

But mostly i dislike their pricing. they are more than capable of selling the items cheaper, but chose not to. There is no "Cheaper" option for Apple, it's Apple or expensive apple with extra shiny.

 

And as yet, I've not seen a concrete reason for why a normal person SHOULD go for an apple over a PC. Some do, and they'll generally shout it's praises, but very few can give a good, technical and/or financial reason for getting one.

 

Most of the people I know who get their first mac say either "I didn't have one and wanted to try one", or "Someone else told me they were cool". Occasionally i hear "I used one at XXX and thought it was good so i went and got one."

 

Not once, have I heard "Well i looked at X,Y and Z, and they didn't really do what i wanted, which is AAA, and i managed to get AAA at BB special price which was as good price and spec as X,Y,Z."

[localzuk]

Well, every person I know with one has never had any issues with malware, viruses or other such fun. Personally, for the average home user, I think that's reason enough at the moment!

[Rydra]

Well, every person I know with one has never had any issues with malware, viruses or other such fun. Personally, for the average home user, I think that's reason enough at the moment!

 

I have an AV installed at home and never have it switched on, except for a full scan i run every 1-2 montohs. It's been like that for about 4 years now without incident.

 

And I'd never suggest a normal non-IT home user goes without one regardless of the computer or OS they are using. I know what I'm downloading, i never click on stuff I don't know, and I know how to fix anything that crops up when it shouldn't.

AV's offer peace of mind for those who don't know any better.

 

Hell, you can even get AV's for your phone now because "people" are dumb and click links they shouldn't.

[Fatmas]

Well, every person I know with one has never had any issues with malware, viruses or other such fun. Personally, for the average home user, I think that's reason enough at the moment!

 

I use Windows and don't get viruses or malware because I use Anti-Virus/Anti-Spyware (both free versions). I've begun to think that users are at fault for most virus infections.

 

Also, if it was reversed and 90% of computer users used a Mac, I'm sure there would be plenty more viruses knocking around.