Diello Posted November 30, 2009 Posted November 30, 2009 Does anyone know what the official position is on OFSTED requiring the school to keep a copy of your passport on file if you were employed after 1996? Our school are chasing staff up for copies of their passport at the moment, and a number of us aren't overly happy about the school keeping a copy of this on file! Can anyone point to any specific information on whether the school are legally required to have a copy, or if they just need to show they've seen a copy/proved right-to-work in another way? Surely the fact we have an NI number is proof enough? Thanks.
webman Posted November 30, 2009 Posted November 30, 2009 Don't know, but as far as I know we haven't been asked to produce ours. They'd be out of luck with me anyway as I don't have a passport.
CHR1S Posted November 30, 2009 Posted November 30, 2009 NI numbers are apparently handed out like sweets and prove sweet fa about your right to work! Ive had this conversation a few times already!! Ive made sure ours are stored in a nice hidden trucrypt container on our server with a huge long password that lives in the safe which is signed in and out.
mb2k01 Posted November 30, 2009 Posted November 30, 2009 Are you sure that it is specifically your passport, or just that they require evidence that the school has made some form of check that you are entitled to work etc? We certainly don't hold copies of passports (unless i've missed it and also not been required to produce it), but we do have to hand over original copies of birth certificate, utility bill, driving license etc prior to employment. These are then recorded as evidence and sent off at the same time as a CRB. Our Personnel Officer keeps all of this information in SIMS and on a seperate spreadsheet for the purpose of audit and OfSTED.
robk Posted November 30, 2009 Posted November 30, 2009 We have just been asked to do that here, apparently OfSTED put you straight into special measures if your safeguarding is not up to date, so we are going through forests to ensure we have all the evidence in triplicate!
mjs_mjs Posted November 30, 2009 Posted November 30, 2009 They shouldn't need a photo-copy, just the passport number if they need a passport. Proof of a passport can be achieved by two people signing a document containing the passport number (CRB's do this). I would say they do not need your passport at all (other than for CRB), and can use your NI number. You may want to check out Data Protection Act (DPA) 1998, data protection policy - ICO for infomation - it's good clear and consice, and from the top. Also check out Data Protection Act 1998 (c. 29) , particually principles 2,3 and 5.
jamin100 Posted November 30, 2009 Posted November 30, 2009 We've been going through this too.. If you don't have a valid passport then a copy of your full birth certificate and proof of NI number... the UK boarder agency is also saying that they have to copy EVERY page of your passport, even if its blank. I'm sure that there was something that i signed when applying for my passport saying that it must not be photocopied under any circumstances.
mjs_mjs Posted November 30, 2009 Posted November 30, 2009 One possible reason they could ask for this as proof is that it contains your citizenship details IE if your a UK or EEC pasport then you have the automatic right to work in this country. For others a passport may be stamped with a visa, showing you have the right to remain in the UK. But you dont have to give them this as proof. A birth cert. will do (if you have one accessible) as will a citizenship document or a visa or a work permit. A passport is the EASYist way for you and them to prove this. But i dont think they need a photocopy, just recorded proof that 2 people have seen it.
achedgy Posted November 30, 2009 Posted November 30, 2009 My finance office told me this: "CRB are not sufficient now due to the introduction of the Single Central Register and the need to record the reference numbers on all documnets used to verify the persons identity. These documents/photocopies are to be kept for at least 3 years after the person leaves their position with school. Previously we were strictly prohibited from keeping these documents" Ofsted demand this as part of the new framework I've been informed...
plexer Posted November 30, 2009 Posted November 30, 2009 Hmm your emploers are the school/la not Ofsted it's your employers who have to prove they have seen your right to work in the UK if the border force come knocking to avoid them being fined? Ben
Theblacksheep Posted November 30, 2009 Posted November 30, 2009 If this the 'defence' against prosecution for hiring illegal workers then: 1) Collecting the information is required before a person has been employed is not a defence. 2) They cannot be fined if you are British anyway, regardless of whether they have gathered the evidence.
apeo Posted November 30, 2009 Posted November 30, 2009 My school has gone mental on this, gathering an insane amount of information under the instructions of our lea. I mean we are forced to go as far as to photocopy each page of the passport.. thats right including blank pages and the front cover.. Just mental.
tmcd35 Posted November 30, 2009 Posted November 30, 2009 My school has gone mental on this, gathering an insane amount of information under the instructions of our lea. I mean we are forced to go as far as to photocopy each page of the passport.. thats right including blank pages and the front cover.. Just mental. Challenge them under the data protection act and ask them why they could possibly require a copy of your Visa stamp to North Korea, how they are going to use that data and how they will be keeping it secure!
Diello Posted November 30, 2009 Author Posted November 30, 2009 My school has gone mental on this, gathering an insane amount of information under the instructions of our lea. I mean we are forced to go as far as to photocopy each page of the passport.. thats right including blank pages and the front cover.. Just mental. That's the question... are we forced to go with it? Can they legally require us to give them a copy of every page of our passport? At which point does their request to store information on us stop being a requirement.
plexer Posted November 30, 2009 Posted November 30, 2009 I just don't see how it's got anything to do with Ofsted? Ben
Arcath Posted November 30, 2009 Posted November 30, 2009 i would have thought that they only need the passport number (from the new ones) thats all i needed to get my provisional driving lisence.... if its good enough to proove who i am and get another form of valid photo ID + the ability to drive on UK roads it should be good enough for a schools records
Theblacksheep Posted November 30, 2009 Posted November 30, 2009 (edited) That's the question... are we forced to go with it? Can they legally require us to give them a copy of every page of our passport? At which point does their request to store information on us stop being a requirement. Its their responsibility to prove they ticked the boxes when you were employed.... HR drones of the world didnt and they are all playing catchup to laws they have not even read. Theres no legal requirement for you to provide this info, only for them to have the info when you were employed..... They can't get fined for not collecting the information, they can only be fined if they were found to employ someone that cannot work in the UK. A friend I know was threatened with this is a 'resonable company request' by HR and MD. Their head of HR kept saying it was law, however she refused to read the law when presented with it.... or listen to said friends reading the law out. Its not just us that use search engines to help with our jobs, it appears HR do the same.... shame they cant do it when they've unplugged the network cable. Edited November 30, 2009 by Theblacksheep
ZeroHour Posted November 30, 2009 Posted November 30, 2009 This is what Lady Scotland was knabbed for. Basically your employer is supposed to keep a photocopy of your passport to prove you work otherwise they can be fined. See below as it mentions keeping a copy: BBC NEWS | Politics | Questions over attorney general
Theblacksheep Posted November 30, 2009 Posted November 30, 2009 This is what Lady Scotland was knabbed for. Basically your employer is supposed to keep a photocopy of your passport to prove you work otherwise they can be fined. See below as it mentions keeping a copy: BBC NEWS | Politics | Questions over attorney general Post employment information collection is not a defence against this.
ZeroHour Posted November 30, 2009 Posted November 30, 2009 Post employment information collection is not a defence against this. Probably not, no idea tbh, A few more links: Checking a prospective worker's entitlement to work in the UK | Business Link UK Border Agency | Preventing illegal working - guidance documents for employers I think they probably could ask for a copy tbh but there are other documents that can be used if a person does not have a passport. 1
deanc Posted November 30, 2009 Posted November 30, 2009 this is not a ofsted thing this is an immigration control thing because I had to do the same when I got a job in a supermarket a few years ago. however if a school have failed to take the relevant legal checks then it is feasable that Ofsted could place them in a category as a result. also it does not have to be a passport (I dont have one so cant show mine) Driving licence and birth certificate should cover you. (photo ID and proof of right to work). obviously if you are a non uk/EU/EEA/whatever citizen you would need to show that you have the relevant visa
john Posted November 30, 2009 Posted November 30, 2009 Our place is doing this as well, as we are expecting Ofsted, its panic stations all need passports, referneces for staff that started years ago being gathered again when they went missing, ticking boxes, crossing I's etc its craaazy!!! As for no Passport, as another no-passport person it makes life harder for them they were OMG you don't have one, we better ask the LEA what we can do as thats the only thing on the list! I gave Driving Licence and a pile of bills, NI card and V5 for my Car I think that covered it all in the end.
Andie Posted November 30, 2009 Posted November 30, 2009 We had all this panic when we were Ofsted-ed about two years ago. Then it was CRB photocopies they were asking for, and threatening failure of inspection if we didn't do as they said. When our office asked for my CRB check to photocopy, I said I didn't think that was allowed, checked the CRB website and found that I was correct. The relevant web page was sent to Ofsted, and the CRBs that had been photocopied were shredded. All we needed was to prove that our employer had all of the CRB reference numbers on file. I can't say for sure that this time round Ofsted are wrong, but... I would check the ICO links above, and I agree that it is the employer who needs proof of your right to work in the UK and not Ofsted. All the school should need to prove is that the employer has all the necessary records.
Andie Posted February 10, 2010 Posted February 10, 2010 I have had to come back to this issue. We were Ofted-ed in January, and no one asked us about photocopies of passports or similar. But it now seems other schools in the area are getting asked. I have just checked back over this thread, and looked in particular at the links from ZeroHour, which have been really helpful. I am attaching the booklet in pdf which I think is the most helpful. We are still getting a lot of mis-information from employement bodies here. The attached booklet tells you which pages of the passport need to be copied. Other documents, in the List A towards the back of the booklet, are acceptable as proof and not all have to have a photo on.summaryguidance0208.pdf
localzuk Posted February 10, 2010 Posted February 10, 2010 This *is* related to Ofsted, as the school is supposed to keep records of right to work, CRB etc... to prove that the safeguarding of children is being done correctly. If it isn't kept up to date and correct, it is an instant 'special measures' - just like if one of our security gates breaks, and we are inspected whilst it isn't fixed, that would be an instant fail too.
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