ESS SIMS 3 Year Contracts

[asteer]

Hi all,

I thought I'd get involved here. Does anyone have the link to the DFE guidance stating to pause this process while discssions are had so I can share this with our team?

Thanks!

 

Schools Week has this article that mentions it - https://schoolsweek.co.uk/schools-told-to-hold-off-on-three-year-mis-contract/

[howartp]

Schools Week has this article that mentions it - https://schoolsweek.co.uk/schools-told-to-hold-off-on-three-year-mis-contract/

 

I think SchoolsWeek and the Key are both using Edugeek as their primary sources at the moment.

[JamesWeatherill]

Schools Week has this article that mentions it - https://schoolsweek.co.uk/schools-told-to-hold-off-on-three-year-mis-contract/

 

DfE advice is now in the schoolsweek link above and in the print edition below. They "encourage all schools to pause before agreeing to this contract whilst we investigate"

 

Edited November 19, 2021 by JamesWeatherill

[enjay]

DfE advice is now in the schoolsweek link above and in the print edition below.

 

Is that on DfE anywhere, rather than just reported in a newspaper?

 

I'm confused by that article saying The Key is a competitor to SIMS. How is that the case?

[localzuk]

I'm confused by that article saying The Key is a competitor to SIMS. How is that the case?

They own Arbor and ScholarPack.

[enjay]

They own Arbor and ScholarPack.

 

Ah, didn't know that. Thanks. That makes them competitors to themselves as well!

[DrCheese]

It'll be interesting to see if the DfE/ESFA are able to stop ESS from forcing this change on schools.

 

Suspect they won't be able to stop ESS from moving to 3 year contracts long term, as ESS would rightly argue that their competitors do it, but hopefully they'll be able to at least delay the implimentation of this to give schools some breathing room.

[TechMonkey]

Surely pausing is not good advice as if nothing comes of their talks then the clock has been run down and schools have less time to get sorted? Use the time constructively to meet with other MIS suppliers, get ideas of how to proceed and get quotes to see what the implications would be. Maybe hold off pressing the go button but be ready and informed to make the change.

[thomsm86]

Don't worry, their next gen version is still just RDP, but this time it's HTML! So their next gen is from 2 Windows Server releases ago? And using brand new HTML 5 technology, from 2010 https://www.infoq.com/news/2010/07/html5-novnc/

After a meaningful conversation with my SSU, who has had a conversation with ESS I understand the following:

• SIMS Connected is NOT their answer to true SaaS cloud MIS or Next Generation SIMS, this is to replace Hosted SIMS and make any school wanting to stay with SIMS7, but have a more reliable browser based connection a better experience.
  
• SIMS NextGen slices are starting to deliver from Q1 2022
  
• ESS, now owned by Parent Pay Group are privately owned, not equity backed. They are choosing to invest 10's of millions over the next 3 years to deliver SIMS NextGen
  

 

Just what I was told, thought I would share... especially the SIMS Connected is their answer to NextGen statement, which is wrong...

[enjay]

One of my concerns (aside the lock-in to a vapourware product, of course!) is whether they'll continue to support Parent Pay's competitors, or will we find feeds to ParentMail, Parents Evening System, etc. stop working? Also, will we see a repeat of these aggressive business tactics as we near the end of our 3 years, perhaps another 3 year lock-in or a late announcement of a 20% price hike. Cynical? Me?!

[enjay]

Suspect they won't be able to stop ESS from moving to 3 year contracts long term, as ESS would rightly argue that their competitors do it

 

The big difference there is their competitors use 3 year contracts with NEW customers who then go to 1 year contracts after that, not their existing ones. Also, suppliers who do offer longer contracts do so for a price reduction compared to 3x 1-year contracts rather than an agreed capped increase.

[localzuk]

ESS, now owned by Parent Pay Group are privately owned, not equity backed. They are choosing to invest 10's of millions over the next 3 years to deliver SIMS NextGen

 

Well, this isn't really true is it? ESS is owned by Tiger UK Bidco Ltd which was set up by Montagu Private Equity specifically to buy ESS. It was then made part of ParentPay group via a circuitous route of companies Tiger UK Midco Ltd, Pp Newco 2 Ltd, Parentpay Newco Ltd, and Parentpay (Holdings) Ltd, with at least one of Montagu's directors being a director of ParentPay group.

 

Also, my lord what a mess of nested companies.

[paulkerton]

• ESS, now owned by Parent Pay Group are privately owned, not equity backed. They are choosing to invest 10's of millions over the next 3 years to deliver SIMS NextGen

SIMS 8 was announced March 30th 2017. 1695 days ago.

Another three years from today to have it delivered would get us to 2790 days. It'll be 2922 days if we say three years from our renewals.

To put this in context. JFK announced the moon landing on 12th September 1962 and 2499 days later man landed on the moon.

London won the Olympic Games on 6th July 2005 and the opening ceremony was 27th July 2012, 2578 days later.

 

So a city can organise the biggest sporting event on Earth and a country can land a man on the surface of another object in our solar system over 50 years ago, faster than a company can develop a new web based solution for their product. That time frame isn't since they started developing it either - its since they decided to announce it.

 

No wonder they gave up going to BETT.

 

ESS was purchased by Montagu Private Equity. ParentPay were invested into by Montagu Private Equity. ParentPay took over ESS and Montagu has taken a significant minority stake in ParentPay Group. I would assume enough to have a significant sway in the decisions the company makes moving forward. I cannot imagine Montagu spent that significant amount of money on SIMS because they wanted to give ParentPay Group a gift.

 

So I don't know how they'd define "not equity backed", but its certainly a different definition than mine.

[armadillo]

Has anyone had a confirmation from ESS Capita they can go for 1 year if they choose to do so, as mentioned in previous messages?

Thanks in advance

[supportman]

ESS, now owned by Parent Pay Group are privately owned, not equity backed. They are choosing to invest 10's of millions over the next 3 years to deliver SIMS NextGen

 

Very useful info...

 

So they are not promising a new cloud based product "Sims NextGen" for AT LEAST 3 more years???

 

I wonder if they are ditching all the previous work on Sims 8 and starting again?

[Guest ZFarnworth]

Very cheeky of them to force everyone into 3 year contracts. We are staying on sims for now I think.

[Rob_D]

Very useful info...

So they are not promising a new cloud based product "Sims NextGen" for AT LEAST 3 more years???

I wonder if they are ditching all the previous work on Sims 8 and starting again?

 

They've also said

The components of Next Gen will be deployed as pure cloud-based applications and will sit alongside existing SIMS features, giving users the opportunity to move across at their own pace. Best of all, these improvements will begin to be delivered for all our SIMS schools at no additional cost, starting in Q1 2022.

https://www.ess-sims.co.uk/resources/blog/next-generation-sims

 

Which pretty much says development is starting now, with modules released as they get finished. Because that sounds like a good idea.

[thomsm86]

Fair enough, point well made.

 

I suppose I am hopeful for the future and see that now they are not part of Capita their horizon is a very different view than before. I know they have been on a massive transformation drive and separation process. They have a lot to prove to the market I suppose and I remember being at BETT when SIMS8 was launched.

 

The new management (I hear Andy Bennett is not longer around?) are being brave and doing things they could not have done under old management at Capita. Is it like pulling a plaster off really quickly, they will feel the pain for a while, but there are some things that simply needed doing?

[Dr_Zeux]

Hi David

Can i ask what MIS you are planning to move to? We are looking into this at the moment for our consortium.

Many thanks,

Darron

[mavhc]

The only argument for staying with SIMS is "it's what we already know", but if they make a web version, it won't be, so there's no point waiting.

[thomsm86]

Which pretty much says development is starting now, with modules released as they get finished. Because that sounds like a good idea.

 

I agree, a very good idea, a lot of admin staff I work with love SIMS and have not been that warm to other solutions. As the new solution is phased out in slices, it will be so much easier and less stressful for a school.

[paulkerton]

The only argument for staying with SIMS is "it's what we already know", but if they make a web version, it won't be, so there's no point waiting.

I can't believe I'm liking one of your posts, considering how comabative me and you can be!

This is exactly what they've been having issue with, I believe. Because SIMS Primary/SIMS 8 is not functionally identical they're getting negative feedback on that and reacting, rather than biting the bullet. Their idea seems to be that they can seed section by section over time, and move people over that way.

 

Which is almost exactly how the move to SIMS 7/.net happened. Bit by bit. Inch by inch.

[paulkerton]

I agree, a very good idea, a lot of admin staff I work with love SIMS and have not been that warm to other solutions. As the new solution is phased out in slices, it will be so much easier and less stressful for a school.

Conversely most of the admin staff I've worked with are really unhappy with SIMS and would like to go to other solutions, but it's management (or in particular business managers) who are likely to drag their feet because of their comfort with FMS, so they don't want to move to better systems. Phasing a solution is a really bad way to do development, especially when so much of the solution is still built on a 36 year old code base.

[sefton]

I agree, a very good idea, a lot of admin staff I work with love SIMS and have not been that warm to other solutions. As the new solution is phased out in slices, it will be so much easier and less stressful for a school.

 

I thought he was being ironic when posting 'it sounds like a good idea' because it sounds fraught with potential issues for me when you are operating a system partially in the cloud and partially on your iron with SQL.

[supportman]

Not to mention the costs or running servers and SQL for the next 3 years in some kind of hybrid solution.

 

Glad we moved!