Taking that decision....... 7 to 10

[garethEds]

I've been following this forum with interest since W10 was released, waiting, biding my time before taking a proper look at it (after several false starts). Am I right in thinking the best way of deploying Windows 10 at the moment is to choose an image, do all the work on it and then stick with it for at least a year. We make our images yearly.

 

So when I do decide to move the school to 10, I choose a version - maybe the latest, or maybe the one below and simply create the image based on that?

 

I guess people do not want to be updating their base images every time a new version comes out. So turning off the version updates is the best way of doing this? Or would you let the updates through via MDT and let your network update itself to the latest version release?

 

Cheers

 

Gareth

[Michael]

It's a really good question and to be perfectly honest, I did deploy Windows 10 Edu in the early days, but these days more so LTSB 16 (based on 1607).

 

LTSB is supported for 10 years and only receives Quality updates; machines are definitely faster without Apps.

 

Each Windows 10 release has more and more bloatware that needs tackling and no real benefits day to day in the classroom, where most schools are still using legacy applications, web applications/subscriptions or of course the likes of iPads, so the desire to start subscribing to another App platform is questionable based on need.

 

I'm also of the opinion the whole 'App' model for Windows is losing its significance, given that Windows Phone has now been abandoned. It was Microsoft's vision to have Apps across different platforms (makes a lot of sense), but the reality is completely different. The App world is very much dominated by Apple and Google, leaving Microsoft for dust and a lot of schools I visit are happy with the App model for iPads.

 

I'm sure others on here will disagree with me (and maybe some agree), but when you're managing over 1000 devices over multiple sites, it's extremely difficult to keep up with Microsoft's update model. Feature updates are too frequent (essentially major OS upgrades), but if you think about the true Educational benefit, there really isn't any.

[KK20]

Ask 10 sysadmins and get 10 answers.

 

We went from 7 to 1609 and didn't look back. Now we are moving to 1709 and will be complete at Christmas. I know a local school that uses LTSB and intend using that till it is out of support.

 

We created a 1609 golden image and installed on PCs using FOG (automated from power on to domain logon via iPXE). We initially upgraded from 1609 -> 1709 via WSUS however it turned into an overnight job (!!) so we simply reimaged with a brand new golden sample (less than 30 mins from power on to domain logon). Our W10 is almost fully stripped of bloat, we delete provisioned and user apps leaving only a couple installed. Cortana is castrated as much as possible, no "people" button, no edge "suggested sites" rubbish - all through GPOs (try and keep away from reg hacks, they will bite you in the bum eventually when you upgrade again and forget about the hacks).

 

The only "app" we use is minecraft education so we need the store and cannot use LTSB (without bodging LTSB which I wasn't prepared to do)

 

How you do it is up to you. what you will need to do is sort out your GPOs (don't forget the ADMX's for the version you will be running!). Don't be lazy about this, use filtering and put W7 on *ALL* your current GPOs and build W10 ones with filtering - trust me, you will find troubleshooting a lot easier. Read the gotchas on here (such as copyprofile being "problematic" in 1709 unless you take precautions).

 

Good luck.

Edited November 23, 2017 by KK20

[mavhc]

Windows 10 updates every 6 months, you can pretend that doesn't happen, but why bother?

 

Don't build an image, build a system to set up computers.

 

Download ISO, extract Wim, upload Wim to server, deploy to computers along with scripts to set it up how you wish.

 

6 months later: upload new Wim, test, fix bugs, done.

 

What do you get with the new version? New hardware support, bug fixes, way more GPO options (granular Settings control for example), new Edge versions, Video editor in Photos, security and bug fixes, WSL, Win+Shift+s for screen capture, Paint 3d, PDF reader in Edge now supports form filling, so maybe no need to install Adobe, EMET built in for all users

 

If you're not into embracing new stuff maybe technology isn't the right job for you

 

So, Install Wim, use MDT to script setup, installing apps. WSUS allows granular control of when to install new versions of Windows, schedule them to install at midnight on shared computers, staff laptops are a bit more annoying, but a 1 hour install every 6 months isn't terrible.

[SHimmer45]

 

If you're not into embracing new stuff maybe technology isn't the right job for you

 

 

i think that is a little harsh, in some schools actually managing and developing the system is being squeezed to a point where it isnt the main priority.

[garethEds]

If you're not into embracing new stuff maybe technology isn't the right job for you

Harsh and a bit rude if I'm honest - maybe not your intention. I won't justify my question to you, but when working in a school, having Paint3D just because it is there is not a concern.

 

Gareth

[Michael]

Harsh maybe, but it's all down to opinion and circumstantial so it's absolutely fine!

 

I'll ask the question direct - what is the Educational benefit of going from 1507 > 1511 > 1607 > 1703 and 1709; other than the obvious 'security updates' most of the Apps are absolute trash when it comes to Education. I'm referring to the actual Teaching and Learning and being able to fulfil lesson objectives more effectively.

[Sheridan]

If you're not into embracing new stuff maybe technology isn't the right job for you

 

Hardly accurate. I've normally wanted to roll out new OS's as soon as I can. 10 has been the buggiest, least reliable and most frustrating pile of poo I've ever had to deploy in 25 years of working in IT. The amount of flak Vista took was amazing compared to this crud.

 

And the new update model is a farce. Basically a move to 10 is reimaging every PC every year. Quite a change of policy compared to deploy/update/upgrade methods of the past which worked fine in most scenarios.

 

The best thing about 10 is its made me think about a complete system change, now moving to chromeos, macos or Linux looks a lot more appealing.

 

And there's no educational benefit from 7 to and version of 10 - only the security aspect. In fact, the issues we've had with 10 have caused more disruption than 7 ever did

Edited November 23, 2017 by Sheridan

[garethEds]

Hardly accurate. I've normally wanted to roll out new OS's as soon as I can. 10 has been the buggiest, least reliable and most frustrating pile of poo I've ever had to deploy in 25 years of working in IT. The amount of flak Vista took was amazing compared to this crud.

 

And the new update model is a farce. Basically a move to 10 is reimaging every PC every year. Quite a change of policy compared to deploy/update/upgrade methods of the past which worked fine in most scenarios.

 

The best thing about 10 is its made me think about a complete system change, now moving to chromeos, macos or Linux looks a lot more appealing.

 

And there's no educational benefit from 7 to and version of 10 - only the security aspect. In fact, the issues we've had with 10 have caused more disruption than 7 ever did

 

We are still running Windows 7Ent here and it's just fine. Security updates are arriving - everything works. Machines are fast enough. All is good.

 

I'm just looking at research before I go there.

 

Gareth

[mavhc]

Apologies, I'm just annoyed at people constantly rejecting new stuff.

 

Paint3d is a popular program here for kids to work creatively.

 

Seems like some schools are doing exactly the same as they did in 1997, Word, Powerpoint, print it off, put it in a folder. Just instead of using clipart they copy and paste from Google images.

 

What's the "True Educational Benefit" to quote a post above?

a) To inspire

b) To help learning

c) To prepare for the future

 

Are any new things people do taught in schools? Or are computers just used for the boring things?

 

Another Windows 10 free app, OneNote.

 

Or blocking the command line, which makes programming courses rather difficult, plus how are students going to learn about it when it's blocked? Some people even try to block right click, in 2017.

 

Edited November 23, 2017 by mavhc

[mavhc]

And the new update model is a farce. Basically a move to 10 is reimaging every PC every year. Quite a change of policy compared to deploy/update/upgrade methods of the past which worked fine in most scenarios.

 

 

Why reimage? It's a 1 hour update. Schedule it for midnight. I've had a new Windows 7 install take longer to install all the updates it needed.

[Sheridan]

Why reimage? It's a 1 hour update. Schedule it for midnight. I've had a new Windows 7 install take longer to install all the updates it needed.

 

Because updating usually breaks things. My test update from 1703 to 1709 broke enough to warrant a rollback on the machines I tested it on.

 

Rebuilding a new image is usually the only reliable way.

[mavhc]

Because updating usually breaks things. My test update from 1703 to 1709 broke enough to warrant a rollback on the machines I tested it on.

 

Rebuilding a new image is usually the only reliable way.

 

What broke? Only problem here with 1703 with Impero.

[Sheridan]

What broke? Only problem here with 1703 with Impero.

 

See my other thread: http://www.edugeek.net/forums/windows-10/190663-1709-business-normal.html

 

Although I can add a few more things I simply rolled back and will prepare a new image with the next build

[Michael]

They're all valid points (A,B,C), but arguably using any supported version of Windows 10 would also be considered inspirational, given that on the surface, all flavours look very, very similar. Quite rightly, that's why @garethedmondson is doing some investigative work to establish the feedback from others and to think about moving from Windows 7 Enterprise.

 

Running the latest and greatest of anything does have its risks, but upgrading for just the likes of Paint3D isn't justifiable. There has to be more compelling reasons (rather than reason).

[kennysarmy]

Rolling out LTSB here until things settle down in the EDU version and NM's are n't left messing around with unsupported scripts etc to make the thing work best for schools.

 

12 PC's currently deployed and ticking off all the little issues we missed during testing, going well and expect to be fully Windows 10 LTSB by September 2018.

[3s-gtech]

Having almost finished deploying 10 (1703), I can't say whether it has really brought any benefit. It works well, but it has taken a lot of work to get there. 1703 will be EOL before Windows 7, which is maddening. In place upgrading everything to 1709 is barely conceivable (especially laptops). My deployment systems (FOG via PXE) are not geared up to simply roll out another OS, when I have to visit each PC to NIC boot it.

 

I'd personally wait if you haven't begun now. Make the most of 7's extended support. Start the back-end and policies work, but deploying it to workstations is a hell of a lot of work and I'm not seeing the benefit other than 'shiny'.

[LeMarchand]

Why reimage? It's a 1 hour update. Schedule it for midnight. I've had a new Windows 7 install take longer to install all the updates it needed.

 

Do you know if this is possible on wireless clients? Will they automatically wake up?

[garethEds]

Apologies, I'm just annoyed at people constantly rejecting new stuff.

No need to apologise - nobody is really rejecting new stuff, it's just with experience comes a bit of caution. Especially when your school depends on it's IT provision.

Paint3d is a popular program here for kids to work creatively.

Good. As a supporter of MS and an MIEE I'm glad to see it being used in schools. Out of interest, are you primary or seconday? How many machines do you support in your organisation?

Seems like some schools are doing exactly the same as they did in 1997, Word, Powerpoint, print it off, put it in a folder. Just instead of using clipart they copy and paste from Google images.

LOL - in Wales we have a curriculum that was designed in 2008 - but at least we do not print and glue. Also - there is nothing wrong with Word and PowerPoint - they are still real world and relevant skills. The push to computer science in the curriculum is having a negative effect on the skills the pupils have and can demonstrate. There is also an issue with an 'ipad generation' of pupils and whilst these devices are brilliant, pupils are arriving at secondary schools with none of the skills they used to have (cut and paste, saving, folder creation, renaming) etc. Although I've yet to see someone swipe a monitor to turn the volume up - but I'm sure it will come. So 1997 skills are still relevant and need to be taught.

What's the "True Educational Benefit" to quote a post above?

a) To inspireb) To help learningc) To prepare for the future

I'm sorry but if you are relying on your technology to inspire then something is wrong. Yes it can help - but don't rely on it. I'm sure I inspire the pupils I teach just as well with Windows 7 as I would/could with Windows 10. Does Windows 10 really help learning when compared to Window 7? Is that what you are saying? Show me a comparison table that outlines the educational benefits of 10 over 7 in classroom. Preparing for the future - does it really? We're preparing pupils for jobs that do not exist yet and to use technologies/OSed that are not yet out there (to paraphrase and steal a quote from somewhere).

Are any new things people do taught in schools? Or are computers just used for the boring things?

Not quite sure what you are asking. What boring things?

Another Windows 10 free app, OneNote.

Isn't OneNote free for all Windows versions? If so then moving to 10 doesn't make a difference. Most schools will have Office 2013/2016 anyway so OneNote is part of that.

Or blocking the command line, which makes programming courses rather difficult, plus how are students going to learn about it when it's blocked? Some people even try to block right click, in 2017.

We block command line access - doesn't stop me teaching python to Year 7 8 and 9 and VB to Years 10-13 for their GCSE/A Level courses. Why would you think I need the command line?

Do you teach (asking out of interest). I often find myself in a funny situation on here as being a teacher and a technical person as well.

Gareth

Edited November 23, 2017 by garethedmondson
Greater clarity and some typos

[mavhc]

Do you know if this is possible on wireless clients? Will they automatically wake up?

 

I think so, probably depends on (bios) settings, my laptops are set to sleep, so easier to wake up.

 

It's done from the client not the server, so they'd have to be awake in the past to download the update, then they'd schedule a time to install it themselves, based on gpo

[Linfit]

We went for LTSB here and it took a year and a false start before we had a rollout we were happy with. I read the threads on issues people are having with new versions of 10 and I am glad I made the decisions to use LTSB. We musn't lose sight of the fact that what teachers want above all is stable and reliable systems. (Confession, I used to be one, in another century). If updates break those systems, thats going to cause issues. You then have to use support time to resolve them.

All schools are strapped for cash at the moment; we have gone from 4 support staff here to 2 and to zero capital budget. If I am going to develop our systems, maintain our increasingly old kit and introduce new functionality by being creative with the hardware we currently have, that is going to take time. I don't want to waste that time firefighting issues with our base OS - I want it sorted, once and for all, so I can focus on things that really do make a difference.

[Sheridan]

We musn't lose sight of the fact that what teachers want above all is stable and reliable systems.

 

Very much this - the OS is a tool to help them teach/learn/whatever. The OS doesn't 'inspire' you or show how forward thinking you are/not. I'm happy to roll forward but not when the OS is causing more problems that the previous one. I'm about 50/50 between 7 and 10 and halted any further 10 as it was increasingly problematic.

[Katy]

We did the opposite and started with LTSB (1511), discovered how broken the start menu layout was (randomly going to a plain black screen, fix being to delete the local profile), and had to go through Enterprise 1607 then 1703 to finally get an almost-reliable user experience (except for the fact GPP printer mapping has been awful all the way through, LTSB and Enterprise)

[atcoates]

I've done my job for 16 years and whether the children have been using windows 95 or windows it 10 has made very little difference. They have clicked the start button and launched an application.

[kennysarmy]

Very much this - the OS is a tool to help them teach/learn/whatever. The OS doesn't 'inspire' you or show how forward thinking you are/not. I'm happy to roll forward but not when the OS is causing more problems that the previous one. I'm about 50/50 between 7 and 10 and halted any further 10 as it was increasingly problematic.

 

Did you try LTSB?