[sims] SIMS 8 Press Release 30th March 2017

[FN-GM]

@PhilNeal I'm somewhat surprised to hear this. Timetabling software is the one area I thought you would keep as a desktop application due to the nature of the job. I wouldn't like to think all the work I do on producing a timetable needs a constant internet connection. Also many of the drag and drop processes associated with designing a timetable suit a desktop app over even the most modern web interfaces. I can see a nice mix and match where maybe some simple swaps and changes can be made online but to migrate all of the functionality of Nova into the cloud seems like a process that is bound to have compromises with little gain. Timetable is a tool used by the few so the benefits of being cloud that can be applied to the rest of the product dont really apply here. Did you consider retaining it as a desktop app or was the decision made to migrate the whole product suite into the cloud ?

 

You can drag an drop in a web interface. There is no need for a desktop app. Get with the times

[mjk]

I doubt that'll end up in the public domain, also its a bit hard to write a SLA for a service that isn't live-live, unless its pretty worthless.

 

There would have to be some sort of SLA publicly available or they will get no customers !

Imagine offering a service but having so little faith in it actually working that you don't publish an SLA and then expect customers to lap it up ! They would have to publish expected uptimes and web response times and compensation terms. It would be like me selling you something with no guarantee that it would work !

[bigdannyb79]

You can drag an drop in a web interface. There is no need for a desktop app. Get with the times

 

I know but rarely is it as easy ! And can often have multiple windows open etc all things that are more difficult to implement in a web app. I'm simply saying it will offer little in the way of benefit and I guarantee there will be issues with the interface at launch. And I bet ya someone is losing some work somewhere. And if your not worried about it being migrated to the cloud I know you aren't responsible for producing the timetable

[vikpaw]

It would be like me selling you something with no guarantee that it would work !

You have a vaporware? When is it available? Am I able to import all my current data...? Tell me more...

[mjk]

You have a vaporware? When is it available? Am I able to import all my current data...? Tell me more...

only £12k per year, I'll even throw in a 50% discount if you sign this week :-)

Just send me your sims database files by email and we can get started !

[FN-GM]

multiple windows open etc all things that are more difficult to implement in a web app.

 

I can't see how

 

offer little in the way of benefit

 

Apart from not being tied to a specific operating system? Being able to access anywhere. These are massive benefits.

 

 

And if your not worried about it being migrated to the cloud I know you aren't responsible for producing the timetable

 

And I know you're not used to migrations. Done properly it shouldn't be a problem.

 

 

 

Your argument could apply to any software. If we all had this view we will still be on Windows 3.1!

Edited April 5, 2017 by FN-GM

[PhilNeal]

@jmak - support can still be provided by SIMS Support Units/TPs although Capita will be hosting it all in Azure. Emphasis will shift away from technical problem solving to helping schools implement their policies, pointing out ways to save money and improving outcomes for children. I see huge opportunities for third parties in this area.

@mjk - SLA will exist on release.

[matt40k]

There would have to be some sort of SLA publicly available or they will get no customers !

Imagine offering a service but having so little faith in it actually working that you don't publish an SLA and then expect customers to lap it up ! They would have to publish expected uptimes and web response times and compensation terms. It would be like me selling you something with no guarantee that it would work !

SLAs are one of the boring bits that are part of the contract that no-one reads. To be fair, you wouldn't really base your decision on the SLA anyway, rather the track record to date. I mean I could give you a SLA for 100% uptime. Doesn't mean you can connect 100% of the time. Even if it is my fault, what is the penalty, 10% your bill next year? Oh did I say I'm upping my costs by 20% next year? - Yes, yes, I know I'm under playing the SLA. It is really important, but its kinda a mood point when we're talking about vapourware - and its vapourware until you can actually get it (which for alot of EduGeek members won't even been possible for a many, many years because the secondary school edition isn't coming out for ages - if your following the procurement advise, you'll be re-re-procuring by then!!)

[PhilNeal]

@matt40k - two significant secondary modules will be here this year. One is due next month!

[minimoo]

*wonders when a (usable) demo of the primary school version will be available*

[Jehanzeb]

@matt40k - two significant secondary modules will be here this year. One is due next month!

 

I thought Primary was the one coming first? Am I wrong in thinking this? How stable is Primary SIMS8 is? Has it come out of pilot testing yet?

 

Many thanks

 

J.

[Jehanzeb]

For those Schools that are on the edge of renewing their hardware kit for example server upgrade, should they carry on and upgrade or should they look at what will be coming in SIMS8?

 

Regards

 

J.

[minimoo]

@PhilNeal here's a question on the options module - I believe we are planning on starting students on a 4 A-Level program in September, and asking them to decide (in/by January) what 3 subjects that will do to A2 and what 1 subject they will do to AS - I'm guessing this isn't something the options module would be able to help with (as it would need to be able to take an import / start off knowing what students are currently studying?). If it can help with that, we'd look at using it live in December/January. I don't know if this idea of an A-Level program is unique to us though - as school's are handling the AS/A2 changes in a number of different ways.

 

And on that note... how does authentication for students work? ;/

Edited April 5, 2017 by minimoo

[PhilNeal]

SIMS Primary has been with support units since January 17 - the only thing that is missing is Dinner Money. We're taking on board feedback from pilot schools and support units now. In the common areas its already secondary ready.

 

in the secondary area Options will be released for 7 users in May. Exam Analysis later this year (but not in time for summer unfortunately)

[PhilNeal]

@Jebanzeb - tricky question - for secondary state sector end of 18 will see a complete SIMS8.

[PhilNeal]

@minimoo - student authentication will be dealt with through SIMS-ID. Best to email [email protected] about specifics around Options.

[vikpaw]

@Jebanzeb - tricky question - for secondary state sector end of 18 will see a complete SIMS8.

What about independents @PhilNeal ? We need more flexibility, but less statutory reporting.

[minimoo]

@minimoo - student authentication will be dealt with through SIMS-ID. Best to email [email protected] about specifics around Options.

 

Will do! Although I must say - does that mean schools are forced to use sims-id? At the moment for instance, we have AD/O365/GoogleApps/Class groups in exchange etc all linked up and automatically provisioned, running ADFS for federation etc across multiple applications (I also believe that @TheScarfedOne on here from salamandersoft sell software to automatically provision also) - presumably there will be an option to use a 3rd party OAuth provider, as from what I can tell at the moment SIMS-ID is a chargable product ?

@PhilNeal - I'm quite concerned about hamsters welfare today - can you feed the hamsters powering my account today please? [Hitting https://myaccount.capita-cs.co.uk/search/all?q=sims-id i.e. a search for 'sims-id' to find documentation took 1.9minutes on the first attempt, 2.0 minutes on the second attempt. Pulling up hot-topics is taking 800ms so that's fine!].

[bigdannyb79]

I can't see how

 

 

 

Apart from not being tied to a specific operating system? Being able to access anywhere. These are massive benefits.

 

 

 

 

And I know you're not used to migrations. Done properly it shouldn't be a problem.

 

 

 

Your argument could apply to any software. If we all had this view we will still be on Windows 3.1!

 

Timetabling is a specific job normally done by 1 person - being able to access anywhere isnt really a benefit as just have it installed on a laptop and desktop. And again OS independent for 1 machine aint a game changer for me.

 

Its usually done in a condensed time frame - I wouldn't want to unable to TT because I had lost internet connectivity.

 

And I am used to migrations and haven't seen this nailed yet hence my apprehension. An extract and integration model works really well with timetabling and they have an established piece of software so just dont see the need to change it.

 

I believe in the cloud and it has massive benefits - they really don't apply to the specific bit I'm talking about.

[PhilNeal]

What about independents @PhilNeal ? We need more flexibility, but less statutory reporting.

 

All the flexibility that Independents require is already built in - we demo'd to the Indy conference in March for an hour. Adoption will depend on whether you use Fees or R&A both should be ready at end of 18.

 

Basic SIMS-ID is included within the 8 platform; we needed to be able to on-board simply.

[minimoo]

Timetabling is a specific job normally done by 1 person - being able to access anywhere isnt really a benefit as just have it installed on a laptop and desktop. And again OS independent for 1 machine aint a game changer for me.

Its usually done in a condensed time frame - I wouldn't want to unable to TT because I had lost internet connectivity.

And I am used to migrations and haven't seen this nailed yet hence my apprehension. An extract and integration model works really well with timetabling and they have an established piece of software so just dont see the need to change it.

 

I think there's three aspects here -

a) initial design/construction

b) 'major mid year reworks' i.e. redesign

c) minor tweaks that arise throughout the year

 

For C, I think cloud will have benefits ( swapping rooms/teachers etc). For A - I do wonder how easy that will be to do in the cloud. We've got a rather complex timetable when I've compared our NT6 file with other schools (more than happy to share nt6 files if you want to compare!). NT6 struggles and that's - we tend to leave it over night trying to jam periods on - I've found if we've got 20 periods not fitting and I run it over a weekend spending 2-3 hours of time on each period, that it'll get 5 things on. Now the cloud can speed that up arguably - can spin up 20 vm's on azure and have one spending 3 hours on a problem - but that's going to get rather expensive quickly! If I look at the speed of development over the last 15 years - I can't imagine us being able to move over to a cloud based timetabling module for 3-4 years! B's then tricky if you need to go back to the initial design having tweaked stuff - we've had teachers leave mid year several times over the last few years, and had to do a major rework in one instance.

[bigdannyb79]

I think there's three aspects here -

a) initial design/construction

b) 'major mid year reworks' i.e. redesign

c) minor tweaks that arise throughout the year

 

For C, I think cloud will have benefits ( swapping rooms/teachers etc). For A - I do wonder how easy that will be to do in the cloud. We've got a rather complex timetable when I've compared our NT6 file with other schools (more than happy to share nt6 files if you want to compare!). NT6 struggles and that's - we tend to leave it over night trying to jam periods on - I've found if we've got 20 periods not fitting and I run it over a weekend spending 2-3 hours of time on each period, that it'll get 5 things on. Now the cloud can speed that up arguably - can spin up 20 vm's on azure and have one spending 3 hours on a problem - but that's going to get rather expensive quickly! If I look at the speed of development over the last 15 years - I can't imagine us being able to move over to a cloud based timetabling module for 3-4 years! B's then tricky if you need to go back to the initial design having tweaked stuff - we've had teachers leave mid year several times over the last few years, and had to do a major rework in one instance.

 

Exactly I said a mix and match would be nice so simply swaps can be made easily by wider group of users but the design/build job just doesn't benefit from being in the cloud. Just having files you can easily jump back to and compare with current to see what x teacher was doing at the start is something you do without thinking about it. In the cloud if they do somehow store revisions so you can step back in time being able to see them both and compare at the same time isnt going to happen. THere's just lots of little processes I know will be hard or not feasible to recreate in the cloud that when your introducing little benefit why bother ?

[mjk]

THere's just lots of little processes I know will be hard or not feasible to recreate in the cloud that when your introducing little benefit why bother ?

 

Because some schools are going to save tens of thousands of pounds by not having local windows desktops.

[djrscally]

Because some schools are going to save tens of thousands of pounds by not having local windows desktops.

 

Specifically in the context of the timetabling software he means - which is generally only used by one or two people.

[PhilNeal]

We're splitting timetabling much as has been observed above. Manual timetabling adjustments on a live system - you could actually create a timetable in that if you really wanted to (primaries might actually do that for scheduling literacy, PE etc). Auto-scheduling is a separate area.

 

Nova-T6 can be used for the auto-schedule part but we are re-engineering this too. It is now possible to produce awesome results in HTML5 within the cloud and that is where we're going.