[sims] SIMS 8 Press Release 30th March 2017

[vikpaw]

Bromcom is down to be there, have they actually made the past few years?

I think we need a spin off thread to see who is going to be there.

[Banjo]

This was some time ago, but the booking 'window' for stands for Bett opened during the Bett event for the following year. Capita along with all the other big players (RM etc) would have got their stand location sorted out 10 months ago. Any decision not to attend has to be a fairly recent one.

 

SIMS8 was barely mentioned at the last LA update event, not a good sign. The people running the current SIMS7 have not been involved with the development of SIMS8 - which is IMO a bad thing. The lead person for SIMS7 is leaving, along with a few other key people. There does seem to be major restructring across across the whole of their ES division including sales & account management people.

[vikpaw]

Bromcom is down to be there, have they actually made the past few years?

I think we need a spin off thread to see who is going to be there.

Thread to discuss MIS suppliers at BETT started here and some posts harvested off.

http://www.edugeek.net/forums/mis-systems/201218-mis-systems-bett-2019-a.html#post1717354

[Face-Man]

Looks like still in pilot phase for primary

 

https://www.capita-sims.co.uk/resources/blog/next-generation-of-sims

 

At present, we’re working to extend our SIMS Primary pilot scheme to provide the widest possible view of our functionality with the aim of rolling out fully in 2019, first to Primary schools and then to Secondary schools later in the year.

 

2020 might be a bit optimistic for it to work in secondary .....

[localzuk]

They're basically missing the boat with this. There are multiple other fully released products on the market, and MATs are pretty much all looking for something better than SIMS 7. Not many are going to have the patience to sit and wait for another possible 2 years... I know we aren't!

[theeggmaster]

Our LA did a presentation earlier this week where they're expecting to move to cloud-based SIMS in 2021.

[supportman]

2020 might be a bit optimistic for it to work in secondary .....

 

Their Roadmap also shows they have delayed it another 6 months due to the development staff working on legacy Sims. Its like watching Kodak trying to keep everyone using old camera film

Edited November 22, 2018 by supportman

[Michael]

Waiting for an MIS to materialise years down the line really isn't a good strategy. The needs of the school or trust need to be put first, rather than favouring an MIS supplier for the sake of it.

 

As others have stated, there are plenty of cloud based MIS systems on the market today, offering more features, cost savings and greater flexibility. I would encourage every school or trust to have a proper tendering process, consulting on all levels and requirements. I can only speculate what the internet/cloud computing landscape will look like in 2021, but it's definitely fair to speculate the need or requirement to be cloud compliant will only become greater.

[Ditto]

Our LA did a presentation earlier this week where they're expecting to move to cloud-based SIMS in 2021.

Anyone, let alone a LA, committing to a product that hasn't seen the light of day three years ahead is incomprehensible. How on earth can they show they are spending public money and achieving value for money. I guess they did say 'expecting to move' but I feel the need to find a lemming GIF.

[TwistedHelixis]

proper tendering process

 

There is no way that our LA will have a proper tender process. They are a Sims partner and half the people in the IT department are employed to help with Sims issues. Its simple not possible to have that level of connection and not find a way to keep things the same.

[localzuk]

One of the arguments I have been given for us to stick with SIMS, warts and problems and all, is that we will be isolating ourselves.

How does using a different MIS isolate us? Organisations we have to send data to can still get that data - they don't care what system it comes out of.

 

If SIMS had released a product in a sensible time - ie. it is fully out now, then we would properly consider it. But we can't wait years for functionality we need now. We can't have staff having to manually collate data all the time, and have a CEO who can't see how the Trust is performing without having to ask someone else to pull all that data together.

Edited November 22, 2018 by localzuk

[vikpaw]

The isolation argument is just fear. They have comfort in the “known” and changing things to a different product with different service levels, different team, not as many peers on the same product elicits a lot of fear. If something goes wrong they don’t want the blame to fall on them and therefore it takes a brave soul to put their neck on the line.

 

Seen it so many times.

 

Hopefully there is pull from the central trust / CEO so you can start the change process.

[localzuk]

The isolation argument is just fear. They have comfort in the “known” and changing things to a different product with different service levels, different team, not as many peers on the same product elicits a lot of fear. If something goes wrong they don’t want the blame to fall on them and therefore it takes a brave soul to put their neck on the line.

Seen it so many times.

Hopefully there is pull from the central trust / CEO so you can start the change process.

Yeah, CEO, COO and admin manager are all keen, as am I. The system we're looking to move to looks like it runs circles around SIMS. Things that take 5 minutes in SIMS are 1 click away in it.

[vikpaw]

Yeah, CEO, COO and admin manager are all keen, as am I. The system we're looking to move to looks like it runs circles around SIMS. Things that take 5 minutes in SIMS are 1 click away in it.

 

Tell me more in the SIMS alternatives thread

[vikpaw]

An interesting update from October with some official input on reasons for the delay:

 

CURRENT STATUS

 

As of September 2018 there are 30 pilot schools and one school which has full adopted the SIMS Primary. Capita are planning to have over 200 pilot schools by Christmas 2018. A full roll out will start in 2019 for Primary and Secondary schools.

 

REMAINING ISSUES

 

Why the delay? Problems with the original reporting engine, data migration and GDPR were the main culprits.

 

A replacement for the mishmash of current reporting tools (the SIMS Report, individual pupil reports, various pre programmed lists, special attendance and behaviour reports plus the assessment grid analyses) are to be replace with a simplified reporting tool. Originally Capita had planned to buy-in a commercial solution, but this proved impractical. So now Capita are developing their own reporting solution, the first part of this solution will be a catalogue of 30 core reports, rising to 80 core reports within the next few months. (Interestingly, links to dashboard software such as Microsoft Power BI are talked about – so assessment geeks might want to download a copy).

 

Full blog post here - https://davidpott.com/2018/10/19/sims-primary-update-october-2018/

[matt40k]

So out of 30 pilot schools, only 1 went full adoption. And over 200 are going over Christmas?! This is ambitious! Are they calling in santa and all his elves to help out?!? Then the full roll out in 2019 for BOTH Primary and Secondary!!! Talk about setting high targets!!

 

REALLY looking forward to the Census returns to find out actual numbers.

[vikpaw]

Doesn't everyone want a mid-year MIS change for Xmas?

[DODICT]

"links to dashboard software such as Microsoft Power BI are talked about " - laughable that linking to a decent reporting tool is "being talked about" when they are meant to be developing a fit for purpose modern MIS from scratch.

 

They really are clueless are cant be honest about the flaws in the current product so you cant expect them to produce something better when they have another bash. THey just dont get the modern requirements of an MIS - that is actionable intelligence straight from your MIS. Wish they would go bust - the education sector would be better off within 12 months on many levels.

[vikpaw]

I always wondered if the solution would take so long to materialise that the problem they were solving was no longer relevant.

[supportman]

I always wondered if the solution would take so long to materialise that the problem they were solving was no longer relevant.

 

Which is exactly the reason while AGILE development is the way forward.

[RootsSchImp]

I agree AGILE (doing a bit at a time) is the best approach for product development, but in this case I don't see how you could move from SIMS7 to the cloud a step at a time.

 

I think Capita are bricking it because they know a massive block of their market share is down to fear of switching in general and fear of having data in the cloud and once you bake those things into the equation and compare their cloud MIS to the others on the market it's going to be really hard to argue they're the best choice. Especially when really important fields of competition in the sector are quality of support and pace of development which for Capita...good luck with that. I feel bad for their tender writing team - lot of wasted hours on the roadmap for them.

[supportman]

Well the modern way to do it is to sit down for 6 months and create a "minimum viable product" such as a clean simple student/staff/parent database for new customers and iterate at speed.

 

Then over time, build out all the features of the MIS through small separate local teams with clear goals. Onboard a small set of users and use them for quick feedback.

 

From what I can tell from the roadmap they seem to be trying to build the entire Sims 7 onto the cloud in some kind of monolith migration. Thats going to cause issues especially as all our schools databases are probably different over time and have all kinds of edge cases.

 

We had a really good talk in our school about devops recently where a guy talked about all this and the dangers of large software migrations.

[matt40k]

It's not like they haven't had opportunities. I know when I was working at a LA a number of micro "schools" popped up, or a school wanted a micro MIS for dealing with summer school clubs. Could have easily build (and SOLD) a basic cloud based MIS for a few hundred pounds. It's just the management weren't interested in investing in the long term. Very much a business case for each change that must make money instantly or very short term.

[krtek]

Just to add a bit more information....

 

My understanding is that Capita's initial approach to reporting in SIMS 8 reporting relied on Jaspersoft and a data warehouse - fine until they started to build dashboards within the software which required live reporting and analytics. So that's the reason they lost so much work and time (and money)

 

As Mr Pott points out, the product is currently shipping with a suite of turnkey reports which seek to meet typical school and ofsted requirements together with limited list building

 

Each support unit will continue to review the product's suitability and key benefits in the light of their knowledge of their customers' requirements and requests for further information and advice should be routed through them

 

Good support teams will keep up to date with developments and act with the best interests of schools very much at heart

 

Dave

 

p.s. and I am hearing that time invested in PowerBI by MATs and power users in schools will not be wasted

Edited December 6, 2018 by krtek

[matt40k]

Just to add a bit more information....

 

My understanding is that Capita's initial approach to reporting in SIMS 8 reporting relied on Jaspersoft and a data warehouse - fine until they started to build dashboards within the software which required live reporting and analytics. So that's the reason they lost so much work and time (and money)

 

As Mr Pott points out, the product is currently shipping with a suite of turnkey reports which seek to meet typical school and ofsted requirements together with limited list building

 

Each support unit will continue to review the product's suitability and key benefits in the light of their knowledge of their customers' requirements and requests for further information and advice should be routed through them

 

Good support teams will keep up to date with developments and act with the best interests of schools very much at heart

 

Dave

 

p.s. and I am hearing that time invested in PowerBI by MATs and power users in schools will not be wasted

I don't understand how real-time reporting was a surprise to them? You have BI and you have MI reporting requirements and folks are going to need both. If you support 22k schools, oddly enough, you are going to need a way of users being able to create custom reports because you are never gonna need to be able to create all the reports they are going to need - some which will need real-time data.

 

So, am I correct in thinking support units include Local Authorities? So public money is being spent to help a private company develop its software? So are they investing the same resources in others?? It just seems wrong they are subsidizing Capita, especially when there are alternatives out there already that have been production ready for YEARS. Why waste your time and money on alpha piece of software??

 

I can't agree about not wasting effort in PowerBI connected to SIMS, it can't be a question of just updating the data connection, the underlying data structure will change and will require a major rewrite!