[sims] SIMS 8 Press Release 30th March 2017

[GREED]

Seriously guys!! You're still ranting about a flipping MSI for SIMS!! The thread is about SIMS8...

 

Because when has that mattered when it comes to staying on topic...

[FN-GM]

It's in Azure but you can use a wide variety of browsers. Not sure about IPv6 but I would have thought that was a given?

@PhilNeal I don't mean the browser, I mean the OS the servers will be running. Is SIMS leaving Windows?

[PhilNeal]

@FN-GM we're still on SQL Server. Dependencies on MS products at school end are removed you can use Google or MS for mail, WP etc.

[Jehanzeb]

Will the price of subscription to the service go up since we'll be totally dependent on Capita services? Reiterating my previous query, will Capita still be supporting legacy (now current 7.xx) version for those who'd like to stay on it?

 

P.S. I am not denouncing Cloud service as I believe it is def the way forward but I'd like to know the options that Schools would have after SIMS8...

 

Kindest regards

 

J.

[Michael]

@PhilNeal I don't mean the browser, I mean the OS the servers will be running. Is SIMS leaving Windows?

 

Most MIS systems - legacy or cloud run on MS SQL - undoutedly probably one of the best, but more crucially with support; something a lot of Open Source products lack given schools pay thousands for an MIS, it makes sense.

[Michael]

It would also be quite interesting to know if SIMS 8 is accessible via IPv6?

 

IPv6 - this is more a hosting query rather than SIMS itself. Seeing as SIMS is MS SQL based, so it'll run on Windows and we know Windows Server supports IPv6... you see where I'm going with this.

[Michael]

Will the price of subscription to the service go up since we'll be totally dependent on Capita services? Reiterating my previous query, will Capita still be supporting legacy (now current 7.xx) version for those who'd like to stay on it?

 

P.S. I am not denouncing Cloud service as I believe it is def the way forward but I'd like to know the options that Schools would have after SIMS8...

 

Kindest regards

 

J.

 

This is something I wrote above - I suspect they'll be a window supporting both, but then I suspect Capita to stop supporting it, but we probably are talking 5+ years realistically; but this is my point also, what will the current /developed/established MIS cloud offerings look like in 5 years? It's going to get very interesting!

[matt40k]

IPv6 - this is more a hosting query rather than SIMS itself. Seeing as SIMS is MS SQL based, so it'll run on Windows and we know Windows Server supports IPv6... you see where I'm going with this.

Doubt it will. Azure has limited support, even when it does, it'll take Capita a year just to add the AAAA records

[mjk]

I thought SQL in the cloud had been largely superseded by NoSQL schema-less databases as they are faster and scale better ?

When building a new system surely it's better to start of with newest but stable tech and not revert backwards!

[localzuk]

I thought SQL in the cloud had been largely superseded by NoSQL schema-less databases as they are faster and scale better ?

When building a new system surely it's better to start of with newest but stable tech and not revert backwards!

The type of database you use depends on the data you are storing. SQL is still a very important type of database for highly structured data, which an MIS would contain.

[matt40k]

I thought SQL in the cloud had been largely superseded by NoSQL schema-less databases as they are faster and scale better ?

When building a new system surely it's better to start of with newest but stable tech and not revert backwards!

NoSQL has "eventual consistency", it means it eventual all the nodes will agree. Can you imagine if you have 2 nodes disagreeing where little Timmy is?

 

 

Good example here - http://stackoverflow.com/questions/10078540/eventual-consistency-in-plain-english

Edited April 4, 2017 by matt40k

[mjk]

NoSQL has "eventual consistency", it means it eventual all the nodes will agree. Can you imagine if you have 2 nodes disagreeing where little Timmy is?

 

There are well tested workarounds for the inherent issues:

https://cloud.google.com/datastore/docs/articles/balancing-strong-and-eventual-consistency-with-google-cloud-datastore/

[matt40k]

Its still a workaround, if you need a knife, don't try and use a fork because it newer. SQL Server scales ridiculously well, alot of the pain people feel with SIMS\SQL is because of poor maintenance, which should disappear as it directly affects Capita profit margin.

[sparkeh]

There are well tested workarounds for the inherent issues:

https://cloud.google.com/datastore/docs/articles/balancing-strong-and-eventual-consistency-with-google-cloud-datastore/

That article discusses balancing strong consistency and eventual consistency. For my money, an MIS should have immediate consistency.

[mjk]

Its still a workaround, if you need a knife, don't try and use a fork because it newer. SQL Server scales ridiculously well, alot of the pain people feel with SIMS\SQL is because of poor maintenance, which should disappear as it directly affects Capita profit margin.

99% of Computing solutions are workarounds to other problems. Cloud/NoSQL is a workaround for the misgivings of SQL and large cloud based data firms chose that because it scales better. But yes I understand that Capita SIMS databases are pretty puny in terms of what Google/facebook etc are doing.

[mjk]

That article discusses balancing strong consistency and eventual consistency. For my money, an MIS should have immediate consistency.

 

you should read the article first.

" in contrast, traditional relational databases have been designed based on the concept of strong consistency, also called immediate consistency."

[pcstru]

I thought SQL in the cloud had been largely superseded by NoSQL schema-less databases as they are faster and scale better ?

When building a new system surely it's better to start of with newest but stable tech and not revert backwards!

Non relational databases have been around longer than the relational model. What you pick depends on your application (and to some degree the availability of developers who are skilled both in the technology and the application domain) and relational model for known structured data up to a few hundred billion records (on relatively modest hardware) should still be a very very sound choice.

[sparkeh]

you should read the article first.

" in contrast, traditional relational databases have been designed based on the concept of strong consistency, also called immediate consistency."

Well don't I look rather silly right about now. :S

 

But still, why wrestle another solution into shape to do what you want when there is a solution (that you are already using) designed to do the exact job you want?

[matt40k]

Again, pretty pointless discussion because it's SaaS... who cares about the backend so long as it works, if they use SQL Server or Mongo, it doesn't matter so long as it works!!

[mjk]

it doesn't matter so long as it works!!

 

Yes sorry for the interlude.

At least some emerging cloud technology will give Capita something to aim for with SIMS 9 in 2030 !!

Edited April 4, 2017 by mjk

[Michael]

MS SQL 2016 for example is highly scalable and is ideal for virtualised/clustered setups; essentially what Azure is.

 

I'm also speculating that Capita (in particular), will want minimal if no changes at all to the actual database allowing migrations to go faster/quicker. Changing the table formation completely would delay migrations. Being able to detach and re-attach the database with the minimal of fuss would make sense (in a perfect world).

[bigdannyb79]

Its interesting all the discussion here is from tech types. If you go into a school with a cloud MIS the NM and team hardly touch it . . .

 

I hope in a few years the discussion around a new MIS is around how it can better support the processes of an educational establishment and critically the learning of young people rather than just hopes of an easily deployed and maintained piece of software.

 

It crazy the magnitude of discussions I see around the setup and config of SIMS for a product that has been a market leader for years and lets face it it hasn't moved forward a great deal in recent times . . .

[PhilNeal]

@Michael - as I said - this is not SIMS7 in a browser. The database structure has been completely rethought to support change requests that have been implemented. We are definitely not plonking the existing database into Azure!!

[Michael]

@Michael - as I said - this is not SIMS7 in a browser. The database structure has been completely rethought to support change requests that have been implemented. We are definitely not plonking the existing database into Azure!!

 

Interesting, but you could have, it's still MS SQL. It probably makes some sense from a development point of view, but it will of course slow migrations. Very difficult to weigh up I guess!?

[PhilNeal]

There's a portal that allows schools to migrate automatically