Term-time holiday father wins at High Court

[sparkeh]

Just heard a scream from our Attendance Officer: Term-time holiday father wins at High Court - BBC News

 

This sets the cat among the pigeons.

Edited May 13, 2016 by sparkeh

[jmak]

I essentially have quite a lot of sympathy with parents - if I could get time off during term time, I'd consider it. Or certainly would have done when my kids were at primary. Last week of summer term, they really don't miss much.

 

I heard this chap interviewed this morning - two of his kids go to private school and one to the state school. Funny how he took the kid out of state school during term time to fit in with the holidays of the private school that he's paid for...

[elsiegee40]

Child was also taken out of school in term time by Mum, who is separated from Dad, so attendance wasn't as perfect as was made out. I understand the school's frustration.

[ozydave]

If the holiday companies played fair with prices there would be none of this in the first place.

[3s-gtech]

Going off on holiday, in terms of booking somewhere, flights etc etc isn't actually a human right. People need holiday time and a break, sure. But surely their children's' education comes first?

[elsiegee40]

If the holiday companies played fair with prices there would be none of this in the first place.

 

Rather than looking at it as raising their prices in high season, try looking at it as dropping their prices in low season. If they didn't drop prices in the low season even fewer would book which probably lead to even higher prices. They have to cover their costs across the year.

[LeightonJames]

Going off on holiday, in terms of booking somewhere, flights etc etc isn't actually a human right. People need holiday time and a break, sure. But surely their children's' education comes first?

 

Whilst I agree with you, when I was at primary school it was never a major issue for us to go on holiday during term time unless it was an important time of the year. This whole fining of parents is ridiculous if you ask me.

[Arreks]

As a 21 year old, I still agree with the School. Especially at a young age, a week or two weeks makes a big difference in the curriculum.. it's unfair for the teachers having to spend extra time so the kid can catch up?

[Duranis]

Going off on holiday, in terms of booking somewhere, flights etc etc isn't actually a human right. People need holiday time and a break, sure. But surely their children's' education comes first?

 

I really disagree. Unless the child is being taken out of school a lot, at really bad times (i.e. before or during exams) or for extended periods (more than a week) then I honestly don't see the harm in it. They might have to do a little bit more catch up work when they get back but the experience of going on holiday with the family, building on family bonds, experiencing new places and things is just as important IMO as anything they would have learn in school that week.

 

There are lots of reasons why parents cant just take their kids on holiday during the school holidays (price, their ability to be able to book time off, what time other other siblings might have, etc) and I don't think schools should have the power to dictate what you do with your children (a week off really isn't harming a child).

 

I remember back in the day most schools used to allow you to have up to 2 weeks off. This works for me, the school can know in advance the child wont be there and advise the parents on what they might be missing. As it is now parents will just end up saying their child is sick for the week.

 

I may be slightly cynical but the fine system seems to be purely there to make money. The people that it is supposed to be stopping (the ones who have kids that are constantly not at school) don't care and wont pay it anyway and the only ones it does effect are the people with legitimate reasons for having to take a holiday in term time.

 

And yes I think having the occasional family time away together is a perfectly legitimate reason for a kid to not be in school.

[mole]

Maybe save up the fines and pay out money back to the parents when teachers are on strike and parents have to take a days leave.

[Duranis]

As a 21 year old, I still agree with the School. Especially at a young age, a week or two weeks makes a big difference in the curriculum.. it's unfair for the teachers having to spend extra time so the kid can catch up?

 

I honestly doubt that there is any part of the current curriculum (excluding maybe A levels and the period before exams) that is so intense that a child missing a week off school is going to seriously set them back. Also if the school knows that the child wont be there they can tell the parent what they are going to be doing and it is then their place to make sure you child knows what is going on. I would say it is unfair that someone else tells you what you can do with your own kids.

[localzuk]

Interesting. Let's put it in context of a week of school. That's a lesson of IT they're never going to get back. A lesson of Drama. A lesson of Music. 3-5 lessons of Maths and English. 2 lessons of Science. A lesson of French.

 

That's a LOT of lost lesson time. In some subjects, that's missing an entire topic.

 

So, yes, missing a week of school is a big deal. I know, I missed months of school over my childhood due to ill health, and it was *very* hard for me to recover and perform as I should have.

[jmak]

I honestly doubt that there is any part of the current curriculum (excluding maybe A levels and the period before exams) that is so intense that a child missing a week off school is going to seriously set them back.

 

You're probably right - and I've said I'd probably do the same, but...

 

I would say it is unfair that someone else tells you what you can do with your own kids.

 

Arguably it's not fair that I (as a tax payer) find a place for your child to be in school and you then choose to leave it empty...

[elsiegee40]

I honestly doubt that there is any part of the current curriculum (excluding maybe A levels and the period before exams) that is so intense that a child missing a week off school is going to seriously set them back. Also if the school knows that the child wont be there they can tell the parent what they are going to be doing and it is then their place to make sure you child knows what is going on. I would say it is unfair that someone else tells you what you can do with your own kids.

 

At secondary you could miss whole chunks of curriculum in a week, let alone a fortnight!

 

At primary the damage is probably less.

[unixman_again]

On the news this morning he said that it was the parents who know what was best for their children. So, saving a few quid by taking your kids out of school is better for them than having an education?

[Duranis]

Interesting. Let's put it in context of a week of school. That's a lesson of IT they're never going to get back. A lesson of Drama. A lesson of Music. 3-5 lessons of Maths and English. 2 lessons of Science. A lesson of French.

 

Looking at this closer though (and this is only my opinion and expect people to disagree, that's ok )

 

1 lesson of art, music, french, drama, RE, PSHE and arguably geography- Honestly who cares. Unless the child has a keen interesting in going into these areas they are pretty much pointless in terms of useful life skills. If the child does have an interest in these areas they will probably get on ok in that subject anyway and missing 1 lesson wont hurt.

 

1 lesson of IT - Unless it is a very tech based school I don't know how they will ever get by missing that one lesson in 20 on MS office products.......

 

Maths, Science and English - again IMO. The only things that are applicable no matter what you do in life that you miss out something important on. English and Maths you will most likely be covering one area for more than a week. Science you might cover a single topic in a week but that could be covered by sending a worksheet home and a little home study to make up.

 

Weigh that against going on holiday with parents, siblings, maybe extended family and doing something with them that you might remember for the rest of your life, that helps shape the bonds you have with the people you love. Sounds like a fair trade to me.

 

On the news this morning he said that it was the parents who know what was best for their children. So, saving a few quid by taking your kids out of school is better for them than having an education?

 

For some people it is the choice between taking them on holiday during term time or not taking them at all. Is it fair to say a family can't go on holiday because they don't have a lot of money?

Edited May 13, 2016 by Duranis

[clockend25]

Think you're slightly over-egging the holiday experience personally. Tricky issue though and can see both sides of the argument. I notice the government have just announced they're going to look to tighten the rules on term time absence.

[woodham]

untill training days are moved into the "holidays" then they cant really complain

[Badzeye]

I think we should be more leniant with children taking time off. Maybe reduce holidays so we dont have whole chunks of time with kids doing nothing. I had a few days where I didnt go to school because I was "sick" and I remember those experiances very well big family holidays with the whole family and going off to help on a family friends farm in lambing season particularly.

[localzuk]

Looking at this closer though (and this is only my opinion and expect people to disagree, that's ok )

 

1 lesson of art, music, french, drama, RE, PSHE and arguably geography- Honestly who cares. Unless the child has a keen interesting in going into these areas they are pretty much pointless in terms of useful life skills. If the child does have an interest in these areas they will probably get on ok in that subject anyway and missing 1 lesson wont hurt.

 

All those subjects lead into a child being a well rounded person. Music has been shown to increase performance in other subjects also (to the extent that some schools, including ours, now have an entire afternoon dedicated to instrument lessons for every child in our year 5).

 

1 lesson of IT - Unless it is a very tech based school I don't know how they will ever get by missing that one lesson in 20 on MS office products.......

 

Been a while since we've been doing Office lessons here. We call it IT but its "Computing" now.

 

Maths, Science and English - again IMO. The only things that are applicable no matter what you do in life that you miss out something important on. English and Maths you will most likely be covering one area for more than a week. Science you might cover a single topic in a week but that could be covered by sending a worksheet home and a little home study to make up.

 

A worksheet is in no way the same as being in a proper lesson.

 

Weigh that against going on holiday with parents, siblings, maybe extended family and doing something with them that you might remember for the rest of your life, that helps shape the bonds you have with the people you love. Sounds like a fair trade to me.

 

There are 39 weeks in an academic year, leaving 13 in which to have a holiday. Term time is term time, simple as that. Remembering going to Disney World is not as important as your education.

 

For some people it is the choice between taking them on holiday during term time or not taking them at all. Is it fair to say a family can't go on holiday because they don't have a lot of money?

 

That is the society we live in. How can we improve social mobility, so the next generation has more money, if those who don't have much take their kids out of school for holidays?

 

Sometimes you realistically have to accept that people have to live within their means. If that means you can't afford an out of term time trip to America, it sucks, but that's life. Paris is nearby. Drayton Manor is great fun too.

[CyberNerd]

If the entire school had only a 90% attendance it would be in special measures.

[3s-gtech]

the experience of going on holiday with the family, building on family bonds, experiencing new places and things is just as important IMO as anything they would have learn in school that week.

 

I agree with that to some extent - it is just as important, but it doesn't require the booking of an expensive package holiday or hotel (for example) to achieve. In which case, it can be done outside of term time where prices for those things are higher.

[mikeprice]

As I was a teacher for 10 years - at a secondary - I saw a lot of this - especially as I worked in a town in a holiday area so we had a lot of parents who needed to work during school hols.

 

I never had a problem with the kids being out of school - my problem was with the parents attitude, especially when the kids were in Year 10 or 11.

The problem was with the catching up afterwards part - they never saw it as part of their problem. I even had one parent complain to the Head when they found out (from me) that 'little Johnny' was behind with his ICT Coursework. Johnny correctly pointed out that he was only behind because he wasn't in school for 3 double lessons (2 weeks plus one extra day).

Parents were complaining as the school should have realised this and contacted the Exam Board in order to allow Johnny to be assigned full marks for these section as he wasn't in school when we did it

 

That was always the attitude - in spite of offers for ME to stay late to help them catch up - or work over MY lunch time - the parents never encouraged the kids to catch up - or even check before hand so they could get ahead before they went.

 

Maybe I am just being unreasonable

[3s-gtech]

I think you're just being realistic, and it's good to get an experienced perspective.

[CyberNerd]

The problem is that the law is inconsistent. The average absence rate is around 94-95% in the UK. This kid had 90% but the judge ruled it was a good level of attendance. This isn't how ofsted see it : 98% is outstanding 90% is really quite bad. The school is judged by these measures, so either the law needs to be changed to reflect the ofsted judgements or ofsted change their rules so that schools in more affluent areas whose families who can afford holidays are not penalised.