2015 Election

[sonofsanta]

As a friend said to me t'other day, though, some people aren't objecting to the cost of the benefits system or the fraud in it, but the social problem it creates, a new benefits underclass content never to work.

 

Personally, whilst I agree that is happening, I think the benefits claimed are a symptom, not a cause. The real problem is rooted in an education system that tells non-academics they're worthless and provides no meaningful vocational training, a social system that seems to avoid the difficult cases (probably because it's so stretched they don't have time for them), and a prison system that doesn't rehabilitate. Attacking the benefits to stop the growth of this underclass is like attacking leprosy by chopping bits off: you've hidden the symptom for a while, but without dealing with the cause it'll only crop up again later.

 

Furthermore, it's like chopping limbs off everyone to try and prevent leprosy in the few people who have it. You've harmed enormous numbers of genuine claimants in attacking benefits just to get at a few.

[Andrew_C]

Benefits street was as brilliant as ever last night for its second series. Thats my belief.

Oh so THAT is where your "facts" come from. All clear now...

[sted]

The annoying one today was the Tory on Radio 2 discussing the welfare state. He stated that the welfare state costs the country £250bn per year, including pensions.

 

Why include pensions? They aren't welfare. They're paid into by the people who collect them. Its like that document that the Tories sent out last year with a breakdown of where your taxes went - they included public sector pensions in the welfare segment!!

 

This is why the Tories won. They are masters of manipulation, and have plenty of papers in their pocket who will spread their bull**** lies.

 

well yes if you include pensions in the benefits system the best way to save money is to sell off the nhs so old people die and cant claim

[Garacesh]

As a friend said to me t'other day, though, some people aren't objecting to the cost of the benefits system or the fraud in it, but the social problem it creates, a new benefits underclass content never to work.

 

Personally, whilst I agree that is happening, I think the benefits claimed are a symptom, not a cause. The real problem is rooted in an education system that tells non-academics they're worthless and provides no meaningful vocational training, a social system that seems to avoid the difficult cases (probably because it's so stretched they don't have time for them), and a prison system that doesn't rehabilitate. Attacking the benefits to stop the growth of this underclass is like attacking leprosy by chopping bits off: you've hidden the symptom for a while, but without dealing with the cause it'll only crop up again later.

 

Furthermore, it's like chopping limbs off everyone to try and prevent leprosy in the few people who have it. You've harmed enormous numbers of genuine claimants in attacking benefits just to get at a few.

I actually have to agree with this.. I wasn't exactly a dole dosser, but before this apprenticeship I was severely demotivated because I hadn't done too great academically (long story*) and because of this I found finding work to be increasingly difficult if I wanted to actually get a career job rather than a 'floater' job. I'd done pot wash twice (overall around 6 months total), warehousing twice (10 months total), cleaning a shopping centre (3 months) outbound telesales (quit after the first day because they were asking us to do illegal stuff), turnstile operator for a local football club (around 2.5 years, but pay was very small and almost inconsequential) but the majority of these were all made up of short-term positions where the demand was mostly a limited increase, such as the run up to Christmas. I'd basically accept any job I could just to be in work for a few months but nothing ever came of it until I started here.

 

* tl;dr I was the typical bully victim. Majority of my bullies were of Pakistani descent. The headmaster would immediately back down to them because they would pull the racism card. Headmaster's 'solution' was to put me on 'study leave' 5 months before my exams. No matter how much I tried to revise (which, admittedly, I could've done more..) I had no work sent home or no support at all. Basically they just swept me under the rug until my GCSE's because he was terrified of being seen as racist. Dropped 2 grades in every subject.

[zag]

Even official estimates put benefit fraud at 0.7% (£1.2bn). In fact, more money is lost through administrative error at 1.3% (£2.2bn):

 

I don't so much have a problem with the fraud levels, that is to be expected in any system.

 

Its just the system seems to trap people in poverty, thats my real issue.

[LosOjos]

Its just the system seems to trap people in poverty, thats my real issue.

 

That's a very different issue that I'd totally agree needs sorting; but it's somewhat at odds with considering the "poverty porn" that is Benefits Street to be the norm...

[Disease]

 

Why include pensions? They aren't welfare. They're paid into by the people who collect them. Its like that document that the Tories sent out last year with a breakdown of where your taxes went - they included public sector pensions in the welfare segment!!

 

This is why the Tories won. They are masters of manipulation, and have plenty of papers in their pocket who will spread their bull**** lies.

 

I'm pretty sure that you still get a pension even if you have never worked a day in your life, you can spend your life on benefits and collect a pension, so it is partly welfare.

[tmcd35]

I thought it was Gordon Brown that broke the link between NI and Pensions? NI is just Income Tax under another name. Pensions are effectively a welfare payment now. At some point, given how much universal pensions cost us, we have to ask the question about giving the more affluent retirees in our society a state handout. By the time I get there (about 30 years or so) I fully expect it to be means tested.

[zag]

State pension: The overhaul and you - BBC News

[zag]

Great article here about the hatred from the Left

 

Stop your whinging: why the Left are such bad losers - Telegraph

 

I found this bit particularly interesting

 

But the keyboard warriors didn’t have time to answer charges of hypocrisy. They were too busy bashing out angry tweets about the fact that only 37 per cent voted Tory, that a different voting system is needed – perhaps something similar to the one in place in, say, North Korea, that would only allow the British public to take part in the ballot if they happen to be left of centre.

Of course, proportional representation would still have given us a Tory government – just one in coalition with Ukip. Is that what the people marching on Westminster want?

Edited May 12, 2015 by zag

[LeMarchand]

I found this bit particularly interesting

 

When you live your life on Twitter and Facebook, and are only friends with like minded people on Twitter and Facebook, you are not living in the real world.

 

Being someone who doesn't have an account with either service I don't know much of what goes on, but are there really no right wingers on there apart from Katie Hopkins?

[Guest Guest]

Benefits street was as brilliant as ever last night for its second series.

 

Benefits Street - Channel 4

 

How anyone can think our benefit system isnt broken after watching this is beyond me. Its happening all over the UK.

 

Handouts never work... Reward the people who want, Punish the people who wont. Thats my belief.

 

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Kingston+Rd,+Stockton-on-Tees+TS20+2UH/@54.5720371,-1.3036943,16z/data=!4m2!3m1!1s0x487e92e95b6dc197:0xd3b74cc1759928d2

 

 

That's where the programme was filmed. All of the area shown in the map above (at that zoom level) is like that one street, and it is as bad as it was made out to be, if not worse. My gf looked at a flat there and was all but chased off the estate by the locals. One year on and the flat is still for sale at the princely sum of £38,000

 

Handouts don't work. Most of the people in that area have no intention of ever working. For the people who would like to work it's far too hard/takes too long to go through the claims process and actually get some money, and far too easy to stay on the dole. Once you are on the books what incentive is there to take a chance on a job unless you know for 100% certainty that you will be kept on? IME it takes 6 weeks from your first visit to the job centre to your first JSA payment. Even if you take a 3 month temp job how on earth can you save up enough to cover those 6 weeks?

 

As said benefits fraud is a red herring. Most of these people are legally entitled to JSA. But are they morally entitled to it?

[elsiegee40]

The new government is clearly anticpating a lot of protest

Sajid Javid: Significant changes to strike law - BBC News

[localzuk]

I wonder if those changes to strike laws will include the ability to have electronic voting for strike ballots? Unions have been requesting it for quite a number of years, but the government keeps turning it down.

 

If it was easier for people to be balloted, more would vote.

 

Also, if there are going to be minimum vote levels for strikes, isn't it a bit hypocritical if the government of the day is in power with less than that level of votes themselves?

[sonofsanta]

Great article here about the hatred from the Left

 

Stop your whinging: why the Left are such bad losers - Telegraph

 

I found this bit particularly interesting

 

I agree with this. It was a democratic election, democratically won. Complaining about people being idiots for voting Tory, or comparing them to turkeys voting for Christmas, or telling them they're selfish... well, that's hardly going to win folks over, is it? For the supposedly "caring" side of politics, I am disgusted by the level of vitriol the left wing can muster.

[localzuk]

I agree with this. It was a democratic election, democratically won. Complaining about people being idiots for voting Tory, or comparing them to turkeys voting for Christmas, or telling them they're selfish... well, that's hardly going to win folks over, is it? For the supposedly "caring" side of politics, I am disgusted by the level of vitriol the left wing can muster.

 

I'm sure we all apologise for wanting to protect the poor, the disabled, and the vulnerable. I'm sure we all apologise for thinking that a government that has helped the richest 1000 families increase their wealth by 117% since 2009, whilst causing at least 80 people to commit suicide due to benefits cuts is a bad thing.

 

To be honest, be disgusted all you want, I couldn't care less. I will continue to campaign for a fair deal for those that deserve it.

[pcstru]

Why include pensions? They aren't welfare. They're paid into by the people who collect them. Its like that document that the Tories sent out last year with a breakdown of where your taxes went - they included public sector pensions in the welfare segment!!

There is no pension pot. What working people pay in, goes straight out as retired people collect their pensions. Practically the only difference between that and welfare is the criteria for claiming.

[sonofsanta]

I'm sure we all apologise for wanting to protect the poor, the disabled, and the vulnerable. I'm sure we all apologise for thinking that a government that has helped the richest 1000 families increase their wealth by 117% since 2009, whilst causing at least 80 people to commit suicide due to benefits cuts is a bad thing.

 

To be honest, be disgusted all you want, I couldn't care less. I will continue to campaign for a fair deal for those that deserve it.

 

I don't disagree with you. I voted Green! I'm all about the left wing! But I'm feeling a little bit ashamed of how nasty people are getting.

 

I always thought the left-wing was more on the side of freedom and choice than the right. If the people have freely chosen, so be it. We need to convince them to come back to us, not berate them for deserting us.

[Disease]

I'm sure we all apologise for wanting to protect the poor, the disabled, and the vulnerable. I'm sure we all apologise for thinking that a government that has helped the richest 1000 families increase their wealth by 117% since 2009, whilst causing at least 80 people to commit suicide due to benefits cuts is a bad thing.

 

To be honest, be disgusted all you want, I couldn't care less. I will continue to campaign for a fair deal for those that deserve it.

 

Yeah, because the rich didn't get richer and the poor didn't get poorer when labour were in for the 13 years prior to the coalition, keep telling yourself that and one day it maybe true.

[andyturpie]

Ah, politics and media all designed to control, install fear and divide - A bit like other methods documented a couple of Millenniums ago.

 

I declared myself religiously agnostic and politically atheist a few years ago now and glad to have done so - less stress

[pcstru]

Amazing how all the changes are in a rush to be implemented but when asked on the run up to the vote it was like extracting teeth from a demented donkey getting information.

Sadly, it seems to be true for all parties. There should be some kind of register of policy promises. Parties should be barred from implementing anything not on that list. Perhaps they could be ... oh, I dunno, carved in stone or something.

[sparkeh]

Yeah, because the rich didn't get richer and the poor didn't get poorer when labour were in for the 13 years prior to the coalition, keep telling yourself that and one day it maybe true.

Not true. During the Blair years, the poor were getting better off even if the richer were getting richer at a rate that meant the gap between rich and poor was widening.

source: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/206778/full_hbai13.pdf

 

Now the poor are getting poorer. More than 1 in 4 children now live in poverty and increasing numbers of people are reliant on foodbanks.

[Garacesh]

I often think that there ought to be some form of punishment for going back on your policies (or not implementing them) without good reason, but A) no government would ever implement that kind of accountability and B) they'd just conjure up some standard twaddlespeak to 'justify' why they did such an enormous u-turn

[Disease]

Nice to see that Ed took the NHS seriously in in tenure as Labour leader, fighting for the NHS and the poor

 

Ed is always keen to impress his friends with deep pockets; he was left very red-faced when photographed in 2011 attending a football match in the Rolls-Royce of Assem Allam, another millionaire property developer and chairman of Hull City Football Club. It would not have been much of a story had Miliband not cancelled an appearance at an NHS rally earlier that day due to illness. It came as no surprise that Allam, nicknamed ‘The Pharaoh’, had slipped the party £100,000.

 

Revealed: Ed Miliband's Bollinger bolsheviks » The Spectator

[LeMarchand]

I wonder if those changes to strike laws will include the ability to have electronic voting for strike ballots? Unions have been requesting it for quite a number of years, but the government keeps turning it down.

 

Possibly. The Snooper's charter will make it easier to identify the malcontents.

 

Thinking about the results of the 'Geek poll, there should be a lot more Tory supporters waving the blue flag here. The piece @zag linked to (if accurate) suggests that there are more people complaining about the Tory victory than celebrating it. I'm not suggesting the election was rigged, but there does seem to be a huge amount of people who have voted Conservative but who seem to have done so almost as a default. I'm not really explaining my feelings well...

 

Anyway, to those of you wondering why some of us are upset by the "will of the people", and with apologies to Martin Niemöller:

 

First they prevented protests against them, and I did not speak out - because I had nothing to protest;

Then they destroyed the benefits system, and I did not speak out - because I had a job;

Then they began surveillance on all communications, and I did not speak out - because I had nothing to say that was against the rules;

Then they dismantled the NHS, and I did not speak out - because I was not unhealthy;

Then they threatened my way of life - and there was no one left to speak out for me.