2015 Election

[tmcd35]

£8ph minimum wage sounds fantastic, but it's going to cause a lot of small businesses to suffer.

 

It's the chicken and egg scenario. The Living Wage is currently thought to be around £7.85 outside London, and £9.15 within.

 

Do you - pay less wages but tax more so you can top up those wages in benefits

Or - increase the minimum wage so you don't have to pay out as much in benefits and can tax less?

[pcstru]

£8ph minimum wage sounds fantastic, but it's going to cause a lot of small businesses to suffer.

If a business isn't viable, it should not expect to be subsidised by using labour that is the subsidised by the state (by making up the difference with benefits payments). So, the only business that should suffer by legislating a minimum wage are those that aren't really viable.

[tmcd35]

If a business isn't viable, it should not expect to be subsidised by using labour that is the subsidised by the state (by making up the difference with benefits payments). So, the only business that should suffer by legislating a minimum wage are those that aren't really viable.

 

Which means less jobs, which means more benefit payouts...

[Garacesh]

If a business isn't viable, it should not expect to be subsidised by using labour that is the subsidised by the state (by making up the difference with benefits payments). So, the only business that should suffer by legislating a minimum wage are those that aren't really viable.

 

That's ridiculous. New business or small local businesses are going to suffer from it. Maybe it's not viable for a business to grow into some big multi-national megacorp, or even expand beyond the town it's in, but it's still going to hit them. Small convenience stores and such.. There's a PC store near me that offers things like repairs and bits and bobs. I'll bet they're not rolling in the money, but I'll bet they have more than one employee! Say you have yourself, plus three other employees, which isn't too much of a stretch of the imagination for a small shop (Hairdresser's, butchers etc).. Minimum wage stands at £6.70 I believe. An extra £1.30 per hour may very well mean having to drop an employee.

 

It's ridiculous to write-off a business just because it's not earning tonnes of profit. It's that kind of thinking that leads to monopoly businesses that are able to bully out competitors.

Edited May 11, 2015 by Garacesh

[pcstru]

Which means less jobs, which means more benefit payouts...

Probably a few - but businesses do fail. Should we maximise the number of businesses that don't really work just to minimise the number of people that don't?

[localzuk]

That's ridiculous. New business or small local businesses are going to suffer from it. Maybe it's not viable for a business to grow into some big multi-national megacorp, or even expand beyond the town it's in, but it's still going to hit them. Small convenience stores and such.. There's a PC store near me that offers things like repairs and bits and bobs. I'll bet they're not rolling in the money, but I'll bet they have more than one employee! Say you have yourself, plus three other employees, which isn't too much of a stretch of the imagination for a small shop (Hairdresser's, butchers etc).. Minimum wage stands at £6.70 I believe. An extra £1.30 per hour may very well mean having to drop an employee.

 

It's ridiculous to write-off a business just because it's not earning tonnes of profit. It's that kind of thinking that leads to monopoly businesses that are able to bully out competitors.

 

Really, you think an extra £11 a day might mean an employee gets the can? If a company is £11 a day between profitable or not, that business is skating on thin ice.

[tmcd35]

Probably a few - but businesses do fail. Should we maximise the number of businesses that don't really work just to minimise the number of people that don't?

 

As I said above, chicken and egg. I'm actually in favour of increasing min wage and using it as a vehicle to minimise tax and welfare payments. However, that then passes the burden over to taxation and getting the right mix that will compensate small business for loss of profit from the increased min wage, but also still generate enough income to pay for schools, NHS, welfare, etc.

 

Personally I feel Gordon Brown Chancellorship had a better track record (not perfect by any means) at squaring that circle than Osbournes.

[elsiegee40]

165 working days per year * £11 = £1815 per year. Then add on employers' on costs (e.g. pension) and multiply that by the number of employees. It could be a more significant amount of money to a business than you make out @localzuk

[Garacesh]

Really, you think an extra £11 a day might mean an employee gets the can? If a company is £11 a day between profitable or not, that business is skating on thin ice.

 

With multiple employees working at the same time, that can easily rise to £30-40 per day (Don't forget, all 4 of you are getting pay rises if you're all on minimum wage). Which yes, for a small business trying to get 'off the ground' so to speak, that can make a fair bit of difference.

 

I understand creating a new business requires a risk and an investment of capital you may not necessarily make a profit on, I'm not arguing that. I'm not even arguing that minimum wage shouldn't rise. I'm just saying it will hit a lot of small businesses which, as @tmcd35 mentioned, will lead to more people out of work rather than in it. Either that, or everyone'll work for Tesco (et al), McDonald's (et al), Curry's/PC World (et al) and even fewer new businesses will spring up because it's not financially viable to compete with the big boys.

Edited May 11, 2015 by Garacesh

[tech_guy]

Cameron & Johnson we're contemporaries and members of the infamous Bullingdon Club:

 

Bullingdon Club - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

https://iconicphotos.wordpress.com/2010/03/14/the-bullingdon-club/

 

 

Rumour has it they have a gentlemen's agreement whereby Johnson would not stand in the way of Cameron becoming PM and in reward he would then get the role himself.

 

That's why Cameron has said he will not pursue a political career after this government and Johnson has been elected MP to Uxbridge even though he's currently Mayor of London. Johnson will then be made Deputy PM in readiness for Cameron's departure - which I firmly believe will be in advance of the next General Election - thus allowing Johnson to become PM in much they same way Blair and Brown played the musical chairs charade themselves.

 

A few points to note:

 

Economic stability for the next five years at least.

 

The NHS is stuffed.

 

Johnson portrays himself as a bumbling buffoon. In reality he's a shark.

 

I'm glad I'm a socialist.

Edited May 11, 2015 by tech_guy

[sonofsanta]

Johnson portrays himself as a bumbling buffoon. In reality he's a shark.

 

Absolutely. He scares me.

 

And what worries me more is that he has accurately and cannily deduced that what the British public want in a politician isn't an intelligent, sharp statesman; they want a buffoon they can laugh at. We, as a nation, are diminished by this.

[witch]

Absolutely. He scares me.

 

And what worries me more is that he has accurately and cannily deduced that what the British public want in a politician isn't an intelligent, sharp statesman; they want a buffoon they can laugh at. We, as a nation, are diminished by this.

 

I agree - he is a highly intelligent man who hides behind a schoolboy nickname and a buffoonish persona. I don't know what his real agenda is.

[zag]

Cameron & Johnson we're contemporaries and members of the infamous Bullingdon Club:

 

Yawn.......

 

What on earth does being part of a dining club at university have anything to do with running the country 20 years later?

 

I was part of the badminton club at uni, we binge drunk more than any other club on campus haha.

 

Typical socialist attitude of hating someone because of their school and university education. Its really strange to me, all people should be treated equally especially when it comes to their educational achievments.

[pcstru]

With multiple employees working at the same time, that can easily rise to £30-40 per day (Don't forget, all 4 of you are getting pay rises if you're all on minimum wage). Which yes, for a small business trying to get 'off the ground' so to speak, that can make a fair bit of difference.

Sure, it sets the bar higher - those small businesses will need to be more 'efficient', 'robust', 'viable'. Is that really a bad thing?

 

I understand creating a new business requires a risk and an investment of capital you may not necessarily make a profit on, I'm not arguing that. I'm not even arguing that minimum wage shouldn't rise. I'm just saying it will hit a lot of small businesses which, as @tmcd35 mentioned, will lead to more people out of work rather than in it. Either that, or everyone'll work for Tesco (et al), McDonald's (et al), Curry's/PC World (et al) and even fewer new businesses will spring up because it's not financially viable to compete with the big boys.

 

Some of those big players are the worst offenders when it comes to raking in profits but paying minimum wage - often on zero hours contracts. Raising the minimum wage keeps everyone on a level playing field. It does not favour big companies any more than they are already favoured.

 

In most cases, the costs will simply be passed on. We will pay more for our goods and services.

[sparkeh]

The EU question on its own is enough to cause the party to implode quite rapidly

Indeed. Hence my postulation earlier that Cameron might actually find things harder with a slim majority rather than a Lib Dem coalition: no more pro EU Liberals to bolster his position. It only takes one rebellion or back benchers getting the hump to cause him problems. And yes that does happen

[Garacesh]

Reading into the Bullingdon Club that does sound like some shady stuff.. But those're some niiiice suits. And at 3 and a half grand a pop (in 2007) you'd expect so.

[Garacesh]

Sure, it sets the bar higher - those small businesses will need to be more 'efficient', 'robust', 'viable'. Is that really a bad thing?

 

Some of those big players are the worst offenders when it comes to raking in profits but paying minimum wage - often on zero hours contracts. Raising the minimum wage keeps everyone on a level playing field. It does not favour big companies any more than they are already favoured.

Absolute bull. Anything that weakens a newcomers ability to enter the market favours the large already-established megacorps who have $Diety knows how much cash reserves to fall back on when the rules change. If it hurts their bottom line too much they can either raise all their prices or spend some cash to lobby. The little guy can't do this. I'm not saying that the little guy should be able to rise to the top at the drop of a hat, but we need local competition and new entries to the market in order to keep it fair. The more it costs, the harder it is to enter the market, the less chance anyone can step up and do something about it if the big boys get out of hand (which they certainly are doing with zero hours etc)

 

Edit: whoops. Double post. My bad.

[Andrew_C]

What on earth does being part of a dining club at university have anything to do with running the country 20 years later?

Typical socialist attitude of hating someone yada yada

It is about their mindset. Read the one about burning £50 notes in front of beggars? Real nice that...

 

Works both ways too; "Oh, you joined the Labour party at Uni?

[pcstru]

Absolute bull. Anything that weakens a newcomers ability to enter the market favours the large already-established megacorps who have $Diety knows how much cash reserves to fall back on when the rules change. If it hurts their bottom line too much they can either raise all their prices or spend some cash to lobby.

This is an advantage they have anyway. Which is why I said "It does not favour big companies any more than they are already favoured."

The little guy can't do this. I'm not saying that the little guy should be able to rise to the top at the drop of a hat, but we need local competition and new entries to the market in order to keep it fair. The more it costs, the harder it is to enter the market, the less chance anyone can step up and do something about it if the big boys get out of hand (which they certainly are doing with zero hours etc)

 

I think there are some edge cases out there where small businesses will go to their doom. If they are that close to the edge, then some other event might well see them collapse. In the end, I believe more people would benefit from raising the minimum wage than will suffer from it and critically I believe it is the right thing to do.

 

I'm afraid that while I will always believe it is right that we have a state which provides a safety net for people, I will never believe it is right that we provide a safety net or effective welfare subsidy for profit making enterprises. I will always put people before profit - which is probably why I am an unashamed, unredeemable Socialist!

[Garacesh]

This is an advantage they have anyway. Which is why I said "It does not favour big companies any more than they are already favoured."!

But it does favour the big companies more by making it even harder to enter the market. It increases the cost of the 'little guy' whilst making barely a difference to the big fella'.

 

I completely agree with you that a minimum wage rise is a good thing (in theory) but I do ask, if you disagree with providing "a safety net or effective welfare subsidy for profit making enterprises", what are your thoughts on Working Tax Credits? Shouldn't be paid as that subsides the business they work for?

[sparkeh]

Now this is my kind of protest!

Garden centre owner's '10% tax for Tory voters' sign goes viral | Politics | The Guardian

[Griff]

Nice handwriting

[pcstru]

But it does favour the big companies more by making it even harder to enter the market. It increases the cost of the 'little guy' whilst making barely a difference to the big fella'.

So if we lowered the minimum wage that would make it easier? Seems to me then that the big companies would be able to lower their prices and are still be better placed than the littler fish. So their advantage is one of size and has little to do with the minimum wage.

 

I completely agree with you that a minimum wage rise is a good thing (in theory) but I do ask, if you disagree with providing "a safety net or effective welfare subsidy for profit making enterprises", what are your thoughts on Working Tax Credits? Shouldn't be paid as that subsides the business they work for?

 

In principle yes. Companies that employ people should pay wages that people can actually live on. There is an issue of employing people part time - which is where a the minimum wage comes in to make sure that companies that do employ people part time, pay appropriately. If the minimum wage is set correctly then for that part time work, the profits of that private enterprise are not being subsidised.

[Garacesh]

Yes, if the minimum wage were lowered, then the overall cost-of-entry into the industry would be lowered. That is exactly what I'm saying. I'm not saying that we ought to lower minimum wage, all I'm saying is small businesses will suffer from a £1.30 per hour wage increase, employees will be let go or have their hours cut, and overall a minimum wage increase will not get more people into jobs.

 

So if somebody works part-time but is not earning enough to rent, eat, clothe and bathe, what then? If there are no more hours to be worked (or if they can't renegotiate their contract) what would you have them do?

[localzuk]

Yes, if the minimum wage were lowered, then the overall cost-of-entry into the industry would be lowered. That is exactly what I'm saying. I'm not saying that we ought to lower minimum wage, all I'm saying is small businesses will suffer from a £1.30 per hour wage increase, employees will be let go or have their hours cut, and overall a minimum wage increase will not get more people into jobs.

 

So if somebody works part-time but is not earning enough to rent, eat, clothe and bathe, what then? If there are no more hours to be worked (or if they can't renegotiate their contract) what would you have them do?

 

If people are paid more, they spend more in businesses... Meaning income can and will increase in many businesses if the minimum wage is increased.