2015 Election

[pcstru]

The benefit system is a joke to the ones who work and who are honest

The fact that you found the benefits system difficult to use is largely down to parties trying to make the benefits system difficult to use because in doing so they can score cheap political points and pander to a rather narrow mindset who despise a minuscule amount of 'scroungers'.

[Gatt]

The fact that you found the benefits system difficult to use is largely down to parties trying to make the benefits system difficult to use because in doing so they can score cheap political points and pander to a rather narrow mindset who despise a minuscule amount of 'scroungers'.

 

It's not "difficult to use" - it's biased to those who don't want to work

 

The whole point of the system was for people like me who HAD worked and were suddenly in a position where they needed somehelp (ie due to job loss)

 

Nowadays its the exact opposite!

 

Had a job - tough bloody *brown sticky stuff*

Never worked in your life? here, have all this money - here you go! Infact, have a house too!

 

THAT is our benefit system!

[localzuk]

Agree 100% with the above - but where does that 42%/35% figure from? I always had a gut feeling (nothing more than that) that there was a bigger disparity than that.

 

From here - British public wrongly believe rich pay most in tax, new research shows | Money | The Guardian

[Garacesh]

Had a job - tough bloody *brown sticky stuff*

Never worked in your life? here, have all this money - here you go! Infact, have a house too!

Oh come on you're completely exaggerating now.

 

I've, unfortunately, been on JSA a few times. Left college and went on the dole whilst looking(ish*) for work. Was made redundant from one job, went back on the JSA. Got put on a work placement warehousing for 6 months, did that, at the end of my "employment" there I got an actual job at a telesales place.. Though I did quit that 2 days in because they were asking us to outright lie to potential clients etc and I wasn't okay with that, did a rapid reclaim, back on dole getting money no issues. I've never had a great deal of difficulty with it and if there are so many 'scroungers' as you seem to be under the impression of, it's clearly not hard to get JSA is it?

 

What, you think they're sat their in their chairs at their PC's going "Harry, you have to check this out! There's a guy here wanting JSA that's actually had a job. Working for a living? What a idiot!! Ahahaha, let's reject his claim LOL."? I'm fairly certain that's not how it goes down. Yes there are tax scroungers. It does happen. But it's not exactly like they're sucking our system dry. We lose way more cash to tax dodging, allowance fiddling and stupid money wasted on overpriced contracts than we do in wrongfully claimed benefits.

 

* Not my proudest moment to admit I wasn't really looking for work, but I'll admit to it nonetheless.

[localzuk]

It's not "difficult to use" - it's biased to those who don't want to work

 

The whole point of the system was for people like me who HAD worked and were suddenly in a position where they needed somehelp (ie due to job loss)

 

Nowadays its the exact opposite!

 

Had a job - tough bloody *brown sticky stuff*

Never worked in your life? here, have all this money - here you go! Infact, have a house too!

 

THAT is our benefit system!

 

Its quite alarming that you believe this nonsense. Yes, you had a hard time. That DOES NOT mean that the system supports a massive number of scroungers, there is quite frankly no evidence of that. The evidence that does exist shows that benefit fraud (those lying people you rant about earlier), is a tiny percentage - less than 1% of the total.

 

I understand you're annoyed about how you were treated, but the answer isn't to treat everyone the way you were, it is to fix the system so that people like yourself aren't thrown to the dogs. Raise people up, not drop people down.

[tmcd35]

The benefit system is a joke to the ones who work and who are honest

 

100% agree - no argument on that front from me.

 

Whilst scrotes who had never seen a days work in their life were going in and getting all the benefits under the sun so that they can continue to stay at home, playing they XBOX one on they 46" TV screens.

So you're answer is to victimise the majority on the actions of the minority? These people exist, they will always exist no matter how you rig the system. They are not the vast majority of claiments. For a single person the maximum in benefits you can claim is somewhere around £110 per week. Think about that for a second, £110 per week, it's nothing.

 

 

So give me damn good reason to beelive that thsi "Bedroom Tax" should be scrapped

 

Because people who have at most £110 per week income (any more and I believe you wouldn't qualify for housing benefit anyway) are being asked to pay figures like £20 per week for each 'unused bedroom' in their property from that meagre income even if the council have no smaller properties to rehouse them in. I may agree this levy was fair if full rent payers were charged extra for unused rooms, they are not.

 

* figures based on single person for simplicity. Couples and children will add to the income, obviously, but its not the £26000 per year the Daily Mail likes to shout about

Edited April 27, 2015 by tmcd35

[pcstru]

The whole point of the system was for people like me who HAD worked and were suddenly in a position where they needed somehelp (ie due to job loss)

No, it was not. The point of the system is to provide a safety net for those that need it, so we don't see a return to workhouses and children begging on the streets.

 

I've been unemployed a number of times - but the longest period was when I left school for around 2-3 years. So you think because I hadn't worked that I should not have been able to claim? That I should have just been left to sink, presumably I'd have to resort to begging or crime or well, what ? How exactly do you expect people like me in that position to make ends meet?

 

Subsequent to that, in my working life, I have paid everything I ever claimed, including the costs of my education, back in taxes several times over. I would like to think that I am a reasonable example that young people who find themselves in an unfortunate situation are worth not writing off. Just because I hadn't paid in, doesn't mean I never would and personally I'm in favour of giving people the chance.

[Gatt]

Its quite alarming that you believe this nonsense. Yes, you had a hard time. That DOES NOT mean that the system supports a massive number of scroungers, there is quite frankly no evidence of that. The evidence that does exist shows that benefit fraud (those lying people you rant about earlier), is a tiny percentage - less than 1% of the total.

 

I understand you're annoyed about how you were treated, but the answer isn't to treat everyone the way you were, it is to fix the system so that people like yourself aren't thrown to the dogs. Raise people up, not drop people down.

 

Indeed - and back in the 80's when I was growing up - no-one wanted to admit that they were "on the dole" - back then it did exactly what it was supposed to do.

There was a social stigma about the Dole..

 

Nowadays, its almost a social status!

 

As for the scroungers =- there are more of them than you think - especially around me, walking out of the JS+ with their expensive iPhones, into their nice Audi's/BMWs/Mercs - off to either the pub, or to play on their nice new TVs and Games Consoles in a house thats virtually paid for!

 

This isn't me ranting and over exaggerating - this is me telling the truth!

I see it day in, day out..

[tmcd35]

As for the scroungers =- there are more of them than you think - especially around me, walking out of the JS+ with their expensive iPhones, into their nice Audi's/BMWs/Mercs - off to either the pub, or to play on their nice new TVs and Games Consoles in a house thats virtually paid for!

 

I believe the police are currently on the look out for some suspected diamond thieves, might be worth tipping them of about these BMW driving, home owning, JSA claiments. Just a thought...

[localzuk]

Indeed - and back in the 80's when I was growing up - no-one wanted to admit that they were "on the dole" - back then it did exactly what it was supposed to do.

There was a social stigma about the Dole..

 

Nowadays, its almost a social status!

 

As for the scroungers =- there are more of them than you think - especially around me, walking out of the JS+ with their expensive iPhones, into their nice Audi's/BMWs/Mercs - off to either the pub, or to play on their nice new TVs and Games Consoles in a house thats virtually paid for!

 

This isn't me ranting and over exaggerating - this is me telling the truth!

I see it day in, day out..

 

Once again, you are using exaggerated anecdotal evidence - and it just isn't reality. Benefit fraud is a tiny percentage, simple as that - Myth-busting: the real figures on benefit fraud | Citizens Advice Scotland.

 

Just because there are clusters of scroungers does not mean they are the majority or anywhere near a major minority. Remember, there are 64 million people in the UK - you've only ever experienced a very small subset of that population. Basing your view on what you've got living near you.

[pcstru]

As for the scroungers =- there are more of them than you think - especially around me, walking out of the JS+ with their expensive iPhones, into their nice Audi's/BMWs/Mercs - off to either the pub, or to play on their nice new TVs and Games Consoles in a house thats virtually paid for!

So you know the intimate financial details of many individuals and families around you? I didn't even know my wife's bank balance - let alone the circumstances of my neighbours. You must be very well informed indeed.

[Garacesh]

JSA should not carry a social stigma. Sure, maybe living permanently on the dole with no intention of getting off it should, but being on jobseekers in of itself shouldn't be a shameful thing.

 

Phones can be gotten on credit (in fact it's the most common way!), as can cars be. Transportation is often essential to finding work, especially if your skillset is a laborious trade like plumber, brickie, sparky, etc. I'm going to honestly call bull:censored: on "everyone having BMW's, Audi's or Mercedes". Not a chance. And what's to say they haven't borrowed their parents car? You're seriously over-generalising. Even if you live in a run-down area (I used to live on a council estate where the vast majority of us were on benefits.. But that's also part and parcel of being in a council estate.. You don't get a council house on its own) where there's a higher percentage of benefit scroungers, you still don't really know their position. That big-screen tv? Could have been donated. My mother gave me her 36" TV when she replaced it. That console? Those can be gotten on finance.. In fact absolutely any item you ever could dream of that can be purchased can be purchased on finance. See: Credit Card.

 

Your opinions are conjecture and assumption. I'm not defending benefit scroungers, I deplore them, I'm just pointing our why your opinion is not necessarily based on fact.

 

Also you should probably stop noseying in other peoples' windows. It's a bit rude.

Edited April 27, 2015 by Garacesh

[tmcd35]

Just because there are clusters of scroungers does not mean they are the majority or anywhere near a major minority. Remember, there are 64 million people in the UK - you've only ever experienced a very small subset of that population. Basing your view on what you've got living near you.

 

If a foreign visitor were to base their opinion of the population of the UK has a whole based solely on the lifestyle choices of my immediate neighbour they would conclude that we are a nation of benefit scrounging, work shy, drug dealing, drug taking, burglars and general wasters (allegedly).

[Gatt]

Well, I've stated my opinion and feelings and observations, and you have all judged me to be living some sort of fantasy where I'm imagining what I see..

 

I'll end it there...

[Garacesh]

@Gatt I can appreciate why you feel that way, we're just trying to point out that maybe you're just in a rubbish area. Even if the people around you are as bad as you say they are (though I must confess difficulty believing you're not emotively exaggerating) it still does not portray the vast majority of people on benefits. And as someone that has worked and found yourself in a position where your job has been no more, it does suck you weren't offered that safety net.. Did they ever actually tell you why they refused you? The only reasons I've ever heard of is either A) You have over 16k in savings or B) You voluntarily quit your job.

[witch]

@Gatt I'm sure you do see scroungers milking the system day in and day out but you surely see that they are likely to be a very small proportion of claimants - and even if it were more, it isn't a patch on the big businesses avoiding tax and having mainstream politicians in their pockets.

There needs to be more due diligence in the system- but depriving the disabled and desperate a few quid to live on isn't the way to go.

[localzuk]

Well, I've stated my opinion and feelings and observations, and you have all judged me to be living some sort of fantasy where I'm imagining what I see..

 

I'll end it there...

 

We're not denying what you think you see. What we are saying is that you simply don't know enough about those people, about their lives, finances etc... You don't see the other 64 million people and the other benefits claimants. You are suffering with what is called confirmation bias. You think something, and you see it everywhere you look because you don't look anywhere else but at people you think are scroungers.

 

Your opinion is your opinion, but opinions are best based on facts, and your facts are just not true. There's no actual evidence to support your assertions.

[Gatt]

I'm not saying we shouldn't have a benefit system

Nor am I trying to say that EVERYONE on it is a scrounger..

 

Yes there may be a higher proportion in my area than other places (Rochdale and Oldham in my case, but maybe Devon (example!) may have fewer (or more - I don't know if it does or

I'm saying its unfair and too heavily relied upon than it used to be... In my experience it is vastly unfair to a lot of people who are honest (take the DSA - it's all about getting a certain "score" - and in my experience, you have no chance unless you know how to play the system)

 

The system should be there for everyone, but it needs to stop being a way of life, it needs to be there for the disabled and those who dont have to ha'pennies to rub together..

More encouragement to get a job, and more discouragement to stay on it if you DONT! (JSA wise that is)

DSA (or whatever its name is at the moment) deperately needs sorting out

 

It's a political hot potato that no one wants to deal with..

[zag]

It is my experience that die hard socialists will always deny there is a problem with benefit fraud because they always think its a small problem and nothing like what the big companies avoid.

 

The difference is the big companies avoid, and mostly do not commit fraud. Its 2 entirely separate things and cannot be compared.

[Garacesh]

Eh, nobody is denying there's a problem with the benefit system. There is, definitely. It is currently abusable (though I challenge you to draw up one that isn't in some way, shape or form) and often feels like it tries desperately to find any reason to cut your benefits (at least, did for me when I was on them.).. It's also incredibly unfair that it forces you to accept the first job offer you're given or you lose out (aforementioned fine in concept, but throw in zero-hour contracts and it's a nightmare)

 

And you're correct that most companies are tax dodging and it's not technically able to be categorised as fraud. But it's still money morally owed and should be paid, and certainly amounts to a much higher wad than we lose to the benefit cheats.

Edited April 27, 2015 by Garacesh

[sparkeh]

It is my experience that die hard socialists will always deny there is a problem with benefit fraud because they always think its a small problem and nothing like what the big companies avoid.

 

The difference is the big companies avoid, and mostly do not commit fraud. Its 2 entirely separate things and cannot be compared.

Die hard right wingers ignore what big business is doing and concentrating on hitting the poorest...

[tmcd35]

Oh dear. Reading a thread of intelligent people and there are so many inaccurate and assumptions floating around.

 

I will give this thread a miss from now on, its reminded me why I don't discuss it on forums.

 

This seems like an over reaction every bit as bad as suggesting everyone on benefits are scroungers. Surely you can debate without taking offence over another opinions (be they genuine, misinformed, or whatever)?

[localzuk]

It is my experience that die hard socialists will always deny there is a problem with benefit fraud because they always think its a small problem and nothing like what the big companies avoid.

 

The difference is the big companies avoid, and mostly do not commit fraud. Its 2 entirely separate things and cannot be compared.

 

Within the eyes of the law, maybe. Morally? They're very similar.

[zag]

Same old arguments really

 

[LeMarchand]

I posted some figures on Benefits Fraud vs Tax Fraud somewhere on the site, but can't find them. This page from Citizen's Advice Scotland shows the difference: Myth-busting: the real figures on benefit fraud | Citizens Advice Scotland

 

Remember, this is Tax Fraud and not avoidance which is likely much higher. Benefit fraud – the facts and figures | Society | The Guardian