2015 Election

[tmcd35]

That sort of thinking only works if you think there is such a thing is absolute morality though, and that the law is infallible. The law is often wrong, and therefore you as a subject of it should always, no matter the crime, be able to challenge it by voting.

 

See, I'd argue - "isn't that what the courts are (should be) for?". Which only goes to highlight the sovereignty of parliament and the fact that too much power is invested there. Laws are infallible and should be challenged, but that's a different issue to the right to vote.

 

You don't get sent prison for petty crime. If it's serious enough for society to think incarceration is the answer, that speaks volumes to me.

Edited April 22, 2015 by tmcd35

[localzuk]

See, I'd argue - "isn't that what the courts are (should be) for?". Which only goes to highlight the sovereignty of parliament and that fact that too much power is invested there. Laws are infallible and should be challenged, but that's a different issue to the right to vote.

 

The courts are controlled by the laws, as written by the government. The only way to change actual laws is through your representatives in government. Courts certainly can't decide to change laws, unless a new law is in conflict with an existing law.

[Garacesh]

society, noun, the aggregate of people living together in a more or less ordered community.

 

Those incarcerated by the judicial system do not live with us as part of the community. They live in jail.

[tmcd35]

As I said, too much power invested in the sovereignty of parliament. We need better checks and balances.

[localzuk]

society, noun, the aggregate of people living together in a more or less ordered community.

 

Those incarcerated by the judicial system do not live with us as part of the community. They live in jail.

 

Ah, so workers in jails leave society when they cross the threshold of the prison site? That's an odd analysis to say the least. Pretty sure prisons are embedded into our societies. We don't have them cut off, Escape from LA style, on islands... I'd've thought that prisoners live in jail, which is itself part of our society.

[LiamH]

That doesn't absolve them of actually committing a crime, though. Whether you agree with the law or not, the law is the law. And acting contrary to the law lands you in prison. (Simplified explanation, granted)

 

Laws should be changed by people that have proven themselves able to follow them (or, more accurately, I guess, people that haven't been caught not following them).

 

Prisoners are not members of society. Prisoners are certainly citizens of the country (in most cases) but they are not members of society as they have been excluded from society for their crimes.

 

That's fine if you think about crimes such as murder or robbery. Just remember homosexuality was a crime not too long ago and it may well still be a crime if everyone guilty of it was locked up with no chance of a vote.

 

The US doesn't have a "pay tax, get to vote" situation anymore. Strange how something they fought against is now the system they employ. You need to become a citizen to vote which involves a citizenship test to see if you would fit in to the society.

[Arreks]

We need better cheques and account balances.

 

Totally agree.

[Garacesh]

Ah, so workers in jails leave society when they cross the threshold of the prison site? That's an odd analysis to say the least. Pretty sure prisons are embedded into our societies. We don't have them cut off, Escape from LA style, on islands... I'd've thought that prisoners live in jail, which is itself part of our society.

No, because workers in jail don't live there, and have the option to leave the premises at will. It's not about the fact that they are currently physically situated inside a jail, you're being petty and you know it. It's about the fact that the government is forcing them to stay there with the express intention that they are not part of society. That's incredibly different to a prison caretaker or guard who is employed there of their own free will and can leave of their own volition.

 

That's fine if you think about crimes such as murder or robbery. Just remember homosexuality was a crime not too long ago and it may well still be a crime if everyone guilty of it was locked up with no chance of a vote.

Don't be silly. You don't have to be gay to vote to de-criminalise being homosexual. I'm not saying the system is implicitly fair, but it's either an all-or-nothing approach and the vast majority of people these days that are in jail aren't there because they got it on with someone of the same gender. IMHO homosexuality should have never been a crime, but those who were punished because they were caught at it are guilty of a crime. Yes, the law is wrong, not the person, and that morally absolves them of their actions. Legally, though, they still committed a crime, and whilst they were incarcerated, should not have been offered a vote (if they were back then, not sure how things were ran)

Edited April 22, 2015 by Garacesh

[sparkeh]

Again. Can anyone tell me what barring prisoners from voting actually achieves?

(Other than the obvious negative outcomes).

[tmcd35]

Again. Can anyone tell me what barring prisoners from voting actually achieves?

(Other than the obvious negative outcomes).

 

Again back to @sonofsanta's two reasons for incarceration - punishment vs rehabilitation. It's a punishment, loss of liberty. If you think the answer to rape and murder is 6 weeks counselling (I'm being extreme for effect) then denying the right to vote probably doesn't make any sense.

[localzuk]

Again back to @sonofsanta's two reasons for incarceration - punishment vs rehabilitation. It's a punishment, loss of liberty. If you think the answer to rape and murder is 6 weeks counselling (I'm being extreme for effect) then denying the right to vote probably doesn't make any sense.

 

Rehabilitation isn't on its own as the second option - it is also "for the protection of the public". So, some people can be rehabilitated, some can't. Punishment is irrelevant. It doesn't even work properly with dogs let alone humans.

 

So, I'm firmly in the rehab camp there.

[CAM]

Because they can't be trusted.

 

What do you think will happen if one prisoner decides to disrupt the entire electoral process in the prison by kicking off, subsequently denying the rest of the wing their vote? What about ensuring fairness and preventing corruption (do you risk letting observers in to walk out with a sealed box they can't look in or trust the guards to do it in breach of electoral rules)? It's a closed environment vulnerable to corruption and people doing sneaky things to get themselves out or something else in. How do you also ensure other inmates haven't threatened violence or other punishments if they don't vote a certain way? And what about those in solitary, do you break confinement for a vote? They can't post a slip through the door and post it back out with a pencil mark. And access to campaign materials, not every prisoner will have access to manifestos on TV and no politician is going to come and visit them.

[LosOjos]

Just throwing a curve ball in here: is it bugging anyone else that in the above poll, all of the biggest party's bars are their party colour apart from Lab/Con which are switched?

[tmcd35]

Just throwing a curve ball in here: is it bugging anyone else that in the above poll, all of the biggest party's bars are their party colour apart from Lab/Con which are switched?

 

No, it's fine - American Republican/Democrat colours, it works

[localzuk]

You're arguing logistics there. Postal voting, with candidates voting filling out their ballot in a supervised room, one at a time, solves all those issues.

 

Every prisoner has access to campaign materials - access to reading material is allowed in prisons, common areas have TVs, with some prisoners being allowed TVs in their cells as well.

 

Logistics isn't a valid reason to take someone's vote away. Else we wouldn't have people voting on sparse little islands up north.

[Garacesh]

@CAM, as much as I'm in the "incarcerated shouldn't be allowed to vote" camp, those things are at-risk in a non-prison polling station, too. What happens if a guy with a gun runs in whilst people are voting? Bam, interruption. People can always be intimidated into voting outside of jail, too.

 

The people that are in jail have been placed there by the courts/government because it has been decided they are not safe to be left as part of society. Voting for a government is a system that is in place for the good of society. These people have clearly acted against the good of society by committing whatever crime got them sent to jail in the first place. Not being allowed to vote should be part of their punishment.

Edited April 22, 2015 by Garacesh

[tmcd35]

Logistics isn't a valid reason to take someone's vote away. Else we wouldn't have people voting on sparse little islands up north.

 

Fair enough, I'll accept the prisoners right to vote...

 

...they just need to visit the existing local polling station to exercise it...

[sparkeh]

How do the many (more enlightened) nations that allow prisoners to vote cope? I can't say I have heard of major issues. Its just logistics.

[CAM]

The difference is people outside prison would actually care about what happens if something kicks off at their local booth. It wouldn't get a mention on the news inside a prison unless a full riot breaks out. And a remote island in the middle of nowhere isn't a concentration of people who have been removed from society for their own or the public's protection.

[localzuk]

The difference is people outside prison would actually care about what happens if something kicks off at their local booth. It wouldn't get a mention on the news inside a prison unless a full riot breaks out. And a remote island in the middle of nowhere isn't a concentration of people who have been removed from society for their own or the public's protection.

 

Ah, so our ability to vote depends on whether the media publishes articles about it? Seems like an odd idea as well...

 

Still don't think people are removed from society when they're incarcerated though.

[sparkeh]

Ah, so our ability to vote depends on whether the media publishes articles about it? Seems like an odd idea as well...

 

Still don't think people are removed from society when they're incarcerated though.

Agreed. Prisoners lose their freedom to move around in society, not their membership.

 

One of the problems with the prison system is that it turns people into objects which things are done to. A much better approach is to help them be the architect of their own rehabilitation which makes re-offending less likely. Voting is part of this.

[CAM]

Ah, so our ability to vote depends on whether the media publishes articles about it? Seems like an odd idea as well...

 

Still don't think people are removed from society when they're incarcerated though.

 

Nope. Kindly quit deliberately misinterpreting posts.

 

People don't care what happens to prisoners. But if you kick off at an outside polling booth that's going to raise questions. There will be an enquiry into why the poll was shut down, people will get angry about an unfair vote. Do it in prison, who will care? Who will even know? Anything could happen in a prison causing votes to be cast or denied unfairly. I guarantee within the first few elections allowing prison votes there will be a scandal as to how they are run.

[localzuk]

Nope. Kindly quit deliberately misinterpreting posts.

 

People don't care what happens to prisoners. But if you kick off at an outside polling booth that's going to raise questions. There will be an enquiry into why the poll was shut down, people will get angry about an unfair vote. Do it in prison, who will care? Who will even know? Anything could happen in a prison causing votes to be cast or denied unfairly. I guarantee within the first few elections allowing prison votes there will be a scandal as to how they are run.

 

I care what happens to prisoners (along with people who think like I do), as do the families of prisoners and the prisoners themselves. So, your claim is already proven incorrect. My comment was tongue in cheek as it seems like an absurd idea, and ignores the reality of the country.

[CAM]

Tell that to the general public then, the very people the politicians are selling themselves to.

[sparkeh]

Of course people care. Why does the Prison Reform Trust exist?