Meru VS Ruckus

[pcstru]

I guess my question is, if you are deploying WiFi today, why would you choose a 7 year old technology/standard?

 

Good post. We chose our solution (MERU) three years ago. We will finish deploying it fully this year. At the beginning of that I knew we would need a better wireless system than the 80 unmanaged CISCO WAP's we had, but I also knew no one was going to pony up the capital to replace it in one hit. Even persuading people to spread the cost over three years can be a tough sell in a school when the requirement for it is emerging (as opposed to having people screaming at the door "Why isn't this working").

 

I think that spread highlights my biggest problem with MERU, the technology lifespan. We are now struggling to source the AP's we need to complete because they are no longer in production. We had to upgrade the original controller last year because we wouldn't be able to buy a partner controller for failover because they went out of production and the new controllers don't work together. So there is no commitment by MERU to longevity of the equipment or backward compatibility and in a School environment where we want 5+ years from the system (and that's 5+ years from now, not 3 years ago), that is perhaps undesirable (and if you do a phased deployment makes it difficult to manage the risk).

 

We haven't seen any usability issues with the system specifically, it seems to work well and where required supports the density of clients we need. However if I was choosing again, I doubt I would choose MERU - not on technical grounds but on value and quality of supply. That said, are the other suppliers any better in this respect?

Edited June 17, 2014 by pcstru

[TheRobins]

Good post. We chose our solution (MERU) three years ago. We will finish deploying it fully this year. At the beginning of that I knew we would need a better wireless system than the 80 unmanaged CISCO WAP's we had, but I also knew no one was going to pony up the capital to replace it in one hit. Even persuading people to spread the cost over three years can be a tough sell in a school when the requirement for it is emerging (as opposed to having people screaming at the door "Why isn't this working").

 

I think that spread highlights my biggest problem with MERU, the technology lifespan. We are now struggling to source the AP's we need to complete because they are no longer in production. We had to upgrade the original controller last year because we wouldn't be able to buy a partner controller for failover because they went out of production and the new controllers don't work together. So there is no commitment by MERU to longevity of the equipment or backward compatibility and in a School environment where we want 5+ years from the system (and that's 5+ years from now, not 3 years ago), that is perhaps undesirable (and if you do a phased deployment makes it difficult to manage the risk).

 

We haven't seen any usability issues with the system specifically, it seems to work well and where required supports the density of clients we need. However if I was choosing again, I doubt I would choose MERU - not on technical grounds but on value and quality of supply. That said, are the other suppliers any better in this respect?

 

Excellent points. Some schools are lucky enough to be able to go gun hoe with their capital spending and throw in 80 AP's and controllers. It seemed a large part of this project and quoting I was doing that all suppliers where trying very hard to push leasing, Even to the point where the leasing companies arrived to meetings when I clearly made it obvious that for many reasons leasing was not a viable option for us. You are quite right regarding longevity of these devices but sadly its the same in many markets. How long does a TV stay the latest model, always a new one out.

 

However I am sure that is the same for any supplier, I'm not sure any wireless technology will have the life spam of the trusty old Netgear DG834.

 

Still for me this pricing is going to be very interesting, Have not ruled out Meru at this stage but the Ruckus seems more attractive proposition.

[psydii]

It's not that they are trying to push leasing per-say but wireless tech works better if it is all of the same generation. (*)

 

N went through at least three generations of silicon and is onto its fourth. If you look about here you will see plenty of people being caught out by vendors end of life-ing kit. Meru and Ruckus included.

 

I can't speak for Ruckus, but Meru have certainly been very helpful to us around our controller end of life.

 

I have noticed that most people who have problems be they technical or kit life cycle related have been playing with the lower cost systems, controllers, and AP's, trying to find a bargain. There is a point in a product's life cycle where the kit gets very cheap as the vendor tries to reduce the stock they are holding ahead of introducing the replacement... It is this kit that may have a shorter life-time from the perspective of the individual customer, who finds out that twelve months later they can't buy any more, and that they can't get the latest and greatest features. My advice: do not skimp on the AP's, with the move to virtualisation, controllers are easy and cheap to solve... However if you make a bad choice with 50+ AP's your stuck with that decision for a long time.

 

 

(*) and it helps their revenue figures.

[TheRobins]

It's not that they are trying to push leasing per-say but wireless tech works better if it is all of the same generation. (*)

 

N went through at least three generations of silicon and is onto its fourth. If you look about here you will see plenty of people being caught out by vendors end of life-ing kit. Meru and Ruckus included.

 

I can't speak for Ruckus, but Meru have certainly been very helpful to us around our controller end of life.

 

I have noticed that most people who have problems be they technical or kit life cycle related have been playing with the lower cost systems, controllers, and AP's, trying to find a bargain. There is a point in a product's life cycle where the kit gets very cheap as the vendor tries to reduce the stock they are holding ahead of introducing the replacement... It is this kit that may have a shorter life-time from the perspective of the individual customer, who finds out that twelve months later they can't buy any more, and that they can't get the latest and greatest features. My advice: do not skimp on the AP's, with the move to virtualisation, controllers are easy and cheap to solve... However if you make a bad choice with 50+ AP's your stuck with that decision for a long time.

 

 

(*) and it helps their revenue figures.

 

Thanks for your view point, all extremely valid.

 

We are only looking at 15 - 20 AP's which isn't as large an investment, only being a small site. As you rightly say the Ruckus Solution is using their mid range zoneflex 7372. I have tried researching online but cannot find any pointers as to when it first hit the market or any information on its life span. Being as the quote we have had is very low I tend to belive it could be end of life sooner rather than later. However, I have balance a very tight budget, A network that needs improvement everywhere due to years of under investment and a complete change in policy and direction within ICT at the school.

 

This is going to be a much harder decision than the Core and Edge switching project. I don't want to invest poorly, on the same hand I don't want to dive into an AC rich environment meaning I have to take money away from either the Core network or Virtualisation next year, A great wireless network with Bottle necks, or a great core with old wireless. I suppose these are the decisions we are paid to take, and we have to live by the sword as they say.

Edited June 17, 2014 by TheRobins

[jtotheb]

As you rightly say the Ruckus Solution is using their mid range zoneflex 7372. I have tried researching online but cannot find any pointers as to when it first hit the market or any information on its life span.

 

The 7372 was first supported in 9.5.1 so Q1 or Q2 2013. Projected lifespan not a clue. When EOL is announced you normally have 6 months to fill your boots with any more you want to buy. Software maintenance ends approximately a year after that and then warranty hardware replacements end another 4 years after that.

Edited June 17, 2014 by jtotheb

[seawolf]

There really isn't much of a problem with Ruckus EOLing your APs. The Zone Director controller can use a mix of APs just fine and the current generation controllers can support both 802.11n and 802.11ac without any issues. The only "problem" you might run into is if you go with the bottom end ZD as they do tend to EOL these much more quickly than the bigger controllers. We purchased a ZD1000 a few years ago and had to do a trade-in for a ZD1100 after 3 years because the ZD1000 couldn't handle firmware versions 9.5+ The cost of upgrading was minimal though and if we had gone with the ZD3000 or ZD5000 we would still be fine after nearly 5 years.

 

Ruckus usually offers some buyback programs that are pretty good when products do go EOL:

 

Pricing, Availability and New 802.11ac Buy Up Program

 

---------------------------

 

Now shipping worldwide, the new Ruckus ZoneFlex R700 is priced at $1,295 (USD).

 

Ruckus is also offering a special 802.11ac Buy Up Program. Under the Program, customers that have previously purchased a qualifying Ruckus ZoneFlex 802.11n Smart Wi-Fi indoor access point (products include the ZoneFlex 7363, 7372, 7982, and 7962) between May 1, 2013 and March 31, 2014 can purchase the equivalent number of new Ruckus ZoneFlex R700 access points for $499 (USD) each, if purchased by June 30, 2014, while keeping their existing Ruckus ZoneFlex 802.11n access points. For more information on the Ruckus 802.11ac Buy Up Program, please visit: http://bit.ly/1fGnXW2.

 

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[woody]

We currently have a Meru 11n system in both our Academies - new build each with approx 60 APs to provide total coverage. This was specked at the time to handle a majority of thin clients running a citrix virtual desktop. Of course the stream is very low for each client so high density is not a problem. But the Meru does do a good job of roaming in this scenario where even a few seconds of AP hopping would be enough to cause problems on a traditional system. I would be interested to hear if anyone else is using virtual desktops on mobile thin clients with a traditional system.

 

Our experience of meru has been generally good. The thin clients have no issues but when we introduce a high density of fat client laptops, there can be log on issues. The original install by a reseller was terrible when our first Academy building opened but better for the second building. On the first one, they did call in Paul Lambert from Meru who did an excellent job of finding the issue: We had new laptops 11n working alongside old ones 11b and it turned out that the new ones where hogging all of the airwaves. Basically, resellers who install Meru do have to go through training, but you can't beat the Meru engineers themselves.

 

When we renew, will we go Meru? (hey that almost rhymes!) I think we would have to test other products with out citrix thin client setup, but by then the focus will probably be more on personal mobile devices which becomes a whole new ball game.

[ryoung]

This thread on Ruckus v Meru has been really helpful - these are clearly two major contenders. I have seen a lot posted on Unifi but hardly any coverage of Areohive. Is Areohive a serious alternative to consider?

[TheRobins]

I did research into areohive. At the end of my looking into them as a product, there seemed to be some issues with broadcom chipsets (cannot remeber which ones). The products are very well priced for the hardware themselfs, and performance wise would compare to the big market players. What ruled them out for me was their software, seemed very much like meraki and designed for business and conference centres as in configuration.

 

I still haven't chosen between Ruckus and Meru, all the boxes for Ruckus are ticked but also hearing locally of great Meru stories, it makes it very tough. Im not going to go AC with Ruckus which saves quite a bit, but have left scope in the future to purchase AC points if new devices make the need nessacary, and the ruckus by back scheme looks as if it could help out here.

 

I did miss 1 answer from ruckus, and thats where you can do bandwidth throttling via their AP's, I want to throttle our BYOD for Staff and Guests, so as to make sure they dont take our bandwidth. If it didnt I could always do this via smoothwall after our install over the summer of course.

[localzuk]

Ruckus vs the World.

Will Wave 2 of 802.11ac minimize Ruckus Wireless' advantage? | Network World

 

Interesting article... I think its wrong though to be honest. Too many wireless providers focus on unimportant things (like whether or not there is a physical controller, for example), and treat the RF side of WiFi as incidental and not something they can work on themselves and improve.

 

One thing about 802.11ac beam forming is that it still won't have the advantage of Ruckus' antennae - and that's what is most important for the technology to work properly.

 

Not to mention, a delay of a year with WiFi is not a problem for the vast majority of companies that are buying WiFi anyway! There are more "wait and see" buyers in the world than early adopters. Just look at the school market - it takes a school half a year simply to decide which system to buy. Large companies are even worse.

[snagrat]

I did research into areohive. At the end of my looking into them as a product, there seemed to be some issues with broadcom chipsets (cannot remeber which ones). The products are very well priced for the hardware themselfs, and performance wise would compare to the big market players. What ruled them out for me was their software, seemed very much like meraki and designed for business and conference centres as in configuration.

 

I still haven't chosen between Ruckus and Meru, all the boxes for Ruckus are ticked but also hearing locally of great Meru stories, it makes it very tough. Im not going to go AC with Ruckus which saves quite a bit, but have left scope in the future to purchase AC points if new devices make the need nessacary, and the ruckus by back scheme looks as if it could help out here.

 

I did miss 1 answer from ruckus, and thats where you can do bandwidth throttling via their AP's, I want to throttle our BYOD for Staff and Guests, so as to make sure they dont take our bandwidth. If it didnt I could always do this via smoothwall after our install over the summer of course.

 

Yes you can do rate limiting on an SSID basis.

 

The 11ac products from Ruckus have just come down in price making them very well priced.

[seawolf]

Here's my final thoughts on the Meru vs Ruckus debate.

 

With Meru, I have heard absolute horror stories with woeful performance even with lots of APs on the one hand and some very satisfied customers with great results on the other hand. I conclude from this that design and configuration of a Meru system is very important for its success, and there may be some correlation in the types (wifi chips) and density of devices in the success or failure with Meru.

 

With Ruckus, I cannot remember hearing someone express dissatisfaction with any implementation. From my own experience, I think you can pretty much throw the APs anywhere reasonable, tag the switch ports properly, turn the ZD on and it just goes (oversimplified maybe, but it's hard to break a Ruckus system). Point being, that Ruckus is very forgiving of misconfigurations and is pretty much trouble free (but very capable and advanced as well).

 

So, for me Ruckus is a dead simple, high performance, reliable WiFi system. It might be possible to get better performance out of a perfectly configured Meru system, but it will likely always be more fragile and difficult to setup and maintain.

Edited June 26, 2014 by seawolf

[TheRobins]

Here's my final thoughts on the Meru vs Ruckus debate.

 

With Meru, I have heard absolute horror stories with woeful performance even with lots of APs on the one hand and some very satisfied customers with great results on the other hand. I conclude from this that design and configuration of a Meru system is very important for its success, and there may be some correlation in the types (wifi chips) and density of devices in the success or failure with Meru.

 

With Ruckus, I cannot remember hearing someone express dissatisfaction with any implementation. From my own experience, I think you can pretty much throw the APs anywhere reasonable, tag the switch ports properly, turn the ZD on and it just goes (oversimplified maybe, but it's hard to break a Ruckus system). Point being, that Ruckus is very forgiving of misconfigurations and is pretty much trouble free (but very capable and advanced as well).

 

So, for me Ruckus is a dead simple, high performance, reliable WiFi system. It might be possible to get better performance out of a perfectly configured Meru system, but it will likely always be more fragile and difficult to setup and maintain.

 

Couldnt have finished that any better myself.

 

I agree that if setup correctly and managed a Meru system would probably out perform a Ruckus solution, Personally for me, Im on my own, dont have much time and just need it to work, whilst being in budget, Hello Ruckus

[holmeren]

Try Extricom - the inventor of 'Channel Blanket' technology. Nothing tops their performance and stability. Have installed all from their 8port system up to 32 AP's system with aprx. 600-700 users connected. Just worked and performed like a charm...

BTW - Meru is a 'software based' vendor of 'Channel Blanket' tech. - that is trying to deliver what Extricom does on HARDWARE basis. Haven't hear anything bad about Meru though - other than some certain performance limitations... Extricom would be a bit more expensive in start-investments I believe....

Edited July 2, 2014 by holmeren

[wifispray]

Single channel vs Microcell...... Age old debate really. Meru have been doing single channel for some time now and are the only ones really in the market that do it well...... However you must question why no other vendor has decided to venture into this market. Lets take an example of formula 1. If one of the car manufactures creates a distinct benefit over the completion they will all monitor the advantage, if this gives them better performance they will all copy it, if not they wont. It’s a bit like Meru and everyone else. All vendors copied the Meru airtime fairness system (created there own scheduling system) because it gave benefit. Nobody has copied the idea of single channel... Why? Co-channel interference.......The fact is that single-channel WLANs are indeed affected by co-channel interference in the same manner as the Microcell WLANs, but to a much more significant degree. Co-channel interference becomes one of the most significant challenges to performance in the single-channel architecture.

[njc235]

Co-channel interference becomes one of the most significant challenges to performance in the single-channel architecture.

 

Some bold statements in there. Here are some facts. Meru Networks outperforms Cisco and Aruba in 802.11ac testing: Tolly Group - ARN

[TheRobins]

Youre quite right. I understand RF to a high level being a licenced radio amatuer so can understand that interference will always be there.

 

I have gone for a Meru solution. This was after much deliberation and investigation. Mainly based on the actuall company who are supplying and fitting it and the schools that I visited that were using it.

 

Lets see if in 2 months time I start moaning about my decision.

 

Single channel vs Microcell...... Age old debate really. Meru have been doing single channel for some time now and are the only ones really in the market that do it well...... However you must question why no other vendor has decided to venture into this market. Lets take an example of formula 1. If one of the car manufactures creates a distinct benefit over the completion they will all monitor the advantage, if this gives them better performance they will all copy it, if not they wont. It’s a bit like Meru and everyone else. All vendors copied the Meru airtime fairness system (created there own scheduling system) because it gave benefit. Nobody has copied the idea of single channel... Why? Co-channel interference.......The fact is that single-channel WLANs are indeed affected by co-channel interference in the same manner as the Microcell WLANs, but to a much more significant degree. Co-channel interference becomes one of the most significant challenges to performance in the single-channel architecture.

[wifispray]

Meru Networks outperforms Cisco and Aruba in 802.11ac testing: Tolly Group - ARN - Facts ....... An independent report commissioned by Meru.

 

There are no facts here its ALL marketing. All schools need to test the solutions offered by the vendors and make up there own minds what works best for them..... Meru shouldnt be a defacto for school... Neither should Ruckus...

[wifispray]

Youre quite right. I understand RF to a high level being a licenced radio amatuer so can understand that interference will always be there.

 

I have gone for a Meru solution. This was after much deliberation and investigation. Mainly based on the actuall company who are supplying and fitting it and the schools that I visited that were using it.

 

Lets see if in 2 months time I start moaning about my decision.

 

I have seen Meru work well in schools...... Dont get me wrong the technology works, they wouldnt be selling so much otherwise in schools.

[TheRobins]

Some bold statements in there. Here are some facts. Meru Networks outperforms Cisco and Aruba in 802.11ac testing: Tolly Group - ARN

 

Source: Tolly Group report commissioned by Meru Networks.

 

 

Wouldnt trust it. You would be amazed if this report would have shown Cisco to whoop the Meru do you think this report would have been public, not a chance. Have a look for all of the Cicso based reports that say its the best in the world. Why didnt they check it against Ruckus or other competitors in the market, maybe they did but just ommitted it from the report. Im saying this even though I have gone for Meru.

 

There are only a few true independant sources, and then you cannot be sure these have been influenced. Nothing better than seeing it in action.

[wifispray]

Source: Tolly Group report commissioned by Meru Networks.

 

 

Wouldnt trust it. You would be amazed if this report would have shown Cisco to whoop the Meru do you think this report would have been public, not a chance. Have a look for all of the Cicso based reports that say its the best in the world. Why didnt they check it against Ruckus or other competitors in the market, maybe they did but just ommitted it from the report. Im saying this even though I have gone for Meru.

 

There are only a few true independant sources, and then you cannot be sure these have been influenced. Nothing better than seeing it in action.

 

I am an independant..... I like to give people facts about the technologies that are not influenced by over marketing. The truth is all vendors have a place in the market and offer something. Selecting the vendor should be based on many things but focused on the customer requirements....... Never just a one product for every situation.

[WifiWizard]

Do not trust marketing.....one of these guys is lying as the maths does not add up!

http://imgur.com/fHGVWDM

[featured_spectre]

@WifiWizard they'll only test in conditions specific to show that theirs is faster, as such you can skew the results anyway you want. I could make my own wifi access point, and skew results so it is 100% faster than all the others.

[WifiWizard]

Absolutely correct. What is required is to ignore marketing, get eval equipment and thoroughly test vendors to your own specific requirements.

[featured_spectre]

I did just that a few years ago (well 5 years now). Bought in HP, Meru, Xirrus, Ruckus, Cisco etc. Did reasonably thorough tests on the device, same tests on each one. Ruckus came out top, Meru second, Cisco 3rd, notable performance from Xirrux. Shortcomings from Aruba, HP, Belkin and DLink.

 

I had contact from Meru, Xirrus, Cisco and Aruba, all of whom improved their technology.