localzuk Posted March 24, 2011 Posted March 24, 2011 Spoken like a true tory. We will temporarily forget about inflation thats about to skyrocket. And all the job cuts because of public spending tory cuts. The damage the Tories will cause will be spread over the years and the likes of me and you wont benefit at all...... just ask anyone whos a student atm. Except, i'm not a Tory. I'm closest to Lib Dem really...
localzuk Posted March 24, 2011 Posted March 24, 2011 Say no more. I don't actually subscribe to the party system - I'm a realist. I vote with whoever has the best policies. Not to mention, as you've now inferred that you dislike both Tories and Lib Dems, that'd make you what, a Labour supporter? Supporting the party which led us on an illegal war, gave us a massive deficit by spending wildly, were complicit in torture, and a long list of other such things? Why?
Gibbo Posted March 24, 2011 Posted March 24, 2011 Spoken like a true Labourite... Who was it that thought that the best way to get out of a recession to to spend, spend, spend even though the country had no money to spend... +1 to that. What was Brown's solution - reduce VAT to 15% so we'd spend our way out of it? I hope all those who did are happy with their huge tellies or other consumer tat that they bought and remember this when they can't pay their bills. Not to mention failed IT project after failed IT project, BSF spending, money wasted on ID cards, the huge costs in the changes to the anti-terror laws. As for this petrol price cut, isn't it funny how when 1p is cut people moan that "its nothing, it won't make a difference", yet when 1p is added to fuel its "an outrage".
sonofsanta Posted March 24, 2011 Posted March 24, 2011 As for this petrol price cut, isn't it funny how when 1p is cut people moan that "its nothing, it won't make a difference", yet when 1p is added to fuel its "an outrage". Possibly because even if this happens every budget, that's 1p off the price a year. Whereas each week I've topped up since the middle of last month, it's gone up another penny. So it won't make a difference because within a week, it'll be counteracted by another oil rise. It was just an attempt to garner some good will and headlines and distract from other, more important points.
localzuk Posted March 24, 2011 Posted March 24, 2011 Possibly because even if this happens every budget, that's 1p off the price a year. Whereas each week I've topped up since the middle of last month, it's gone up another penny. So it won't make a difference because within a week, it'll be counteracted by another oil rise. It was just an attempt to garner some good will and headlines and distract from other, more important points. What are those points?
mats Posted March 24, 2011 Posted March 24, 2011 Possibly because even if this happens every budget, that's 1p off the price a year. Whereas each week I've topped up since the middle of last month, it's gone up another penny. So it won't make a difference because within a week, it'll be counteracted by another oil rise. It was just an attempt to garner some good will and headlines and distract from other, more important points. If you accept that oil prices aren't ever going to come down (peak oil anybody?) then the fair fuel stabiliser (appropriate acronym I must say) is pointless - all it will ever do is reduce the tax take. If anything, one could argue for tax rises to get us used to future rises (when there might then be leeway to reduce the tax).
localzuk Posted March 24, 2011 Posted March 24, 2011 "I don't actually subscribe to the party system - I'm a realist." (!) "I vote with whoever has the best policies" For whom? you , me or the country? "Supporting the party which led us on an illegal war" Rubbish ... Its no different to libya atm ... when that turns sour it will be blamed on the cod-dems for bombing them. "gave us a massive deficit by spending wildly" Banks or industry. Tories choose banks in the 80's and were still paying for that mistake. Huh? Libya is in no way, shape, or form the same as Iraq. Iraq had no UN mandate. The government's legal advisers said it would be legally questionable, but were slapped down and told to shut up. Libya has a UN mandate, and is not an invasion. The targets are very specific and it isn't a war. Best policies for the country as a whole in my view. You are trying to make it sound like Labour didn't spend 12 years building up a massive deficit, and putting us massively in debt! Their economic policies were a disaster and that is what has led us into our current situation. Why, if it is due to the Tories in the 80s, did Labour do NOTHING about it in their time in power?
sonofsanta Posted March 24, 2011 Posted March 24, 2011 What are those points? The switch from RPI to CPI (or whichever way round it is, anyway) for direct tax allowances, for one. I've barely seen it mentioned but it'll have a massive impact on no end of tax figures. I'm increasingly bitter about CPI and RPI now anyway because public sector pensions are now linked to the lower (CPI) whilst my student loan interest is tied to the higher (RPI)... they only have 2 figures so they can pick and choose the one that sounds best/makes more
witch Posted March 24, 2011 Posted March 24, 2011 ..and here's that mod you were waiting for...sorry - I have been involved with BBC SCHOOL REPORT all day and have not been about much. Thanks for going back to the budget. IMHO merging NI and Tax sounds good until you get into the realms of pensions - they don't take NI off pensioners so what will they do? Probably make some really complicated calculation no one can understand to show that pensioners are not worse off! Please could we stop blaming the last government. Those of us who are old enough can remember the complete mess the one before that made, AND the one before that too.
Popular Post MK-2 Posted March 24, 2011 Popular Post Posted March 24, 2011 Please could we stop blaming the last government. Those of us who are old enough can remember the complete mess the one before that made, AND the one before that too. but its a legitimate point. if i started work at a school where the last tech had been there for 15 years and had wasted thousands on useless kit and all servers were outdated and i came in and said right we cant spend on useless kit anymore as we need to fix the mess the last person left for 15 years, nobody would say "but those of us that remember who was here before him 16 years ago know we cant blame him". If, after 15 years of me working at the place, i haven't resolved any of the problems the person before me left and i then leave, then the next person is more than entitled to say "what a mess the guy before left, how did he not fix this in 15 years" if you are saying that labour took 15 years to try and get us out of the problems the tories got us into, well then how about we give the tories 15 years and assess if they get us out of the same mess, rather than 1 year in saying they are rubbish and we'd be better off without them 6
Gatt Posted March 24, 2011 Author Posted March 24, 2011 Didn't Thatcher and Co have to fix the problems made by the previous Labour Govt anyway? Ok so She sold off all our assets, but IIRC, by the end of the 80's The country was in a pretty damned good shape again..
HallX Posted March 24, 2011 Posted March 24, 2011 (edited) @Galway In fairness, in the 70's, the unions didn't do the nationalised industries many favours. Edited March 24, 2011 by HallX
GrumbleDook Posted March 24, 2011 Posted March 24, 2011 No matter who you want to blame, whether it is the present Govt (or either of the parties), the last Govt, Govts all the way back to George III ... the banks, the oil industry, gangsters, rappers, gangsta rappers ... we all have to admit that part of the problem is the consumer culture which has made so many people more than happy to accept 125% mortgages, run up personal debt of shocking amounts ... Debt has become accepted as the norm rather than the exception. Instead of parents passing on savings to allow for support at university or buying that first home ... we are now in the situation where everyone is in debt, both personally and as part of the country. Austerity measures aimed at the whole country only work if you also say to people that they need to take some responsibility. For those who are on the breadline this is nigh on impossible, but a fair amount others can do it ... But then you get into a terrible balancing act. Beer and fags bring in money. It is whether they cost more than they bring in .. and not just medically, but the cost for police (dealing with everything from the nightly throw out from pubs, dealing with social issues, police support dealing with the illegal traffic of contraband goods, etc), the cost of people dying early and not making fuller contributions to the economy, the failure to get a full return on money invested in education ... the list goes on. For a lot of people the best you can hope for is that things don't get worse over the coming 3 years ... however, it is not so much the budget that will make a difference here, but individual departments of the Govt ... cuts here there and everywhere mean that not only pubic sector jobs go, but those who provide to the public sector as well as other sectors.
Gatt Posted March 24, 2011 Author Posted March 24, 2011 A Quick glance through Wiki shows tha when Thatcher came to power in 79, she inherited a massive amount of Debt and just out of recession So Yes she sold off what she could, unemployment rose from 1.5, to 3.2m, but by the mid 80's economic growth was back, tax was coming down and despite a recession in the US during 89 - Britain was still "booming" It continued to boom with a quick-dip recession in 1990-1993 When labour caeme to power in 97 - there was no recession or high debt... but there certainly was when they left... - more so due to Gordie...
jcollings Posted March 24, 2011 Posted March 24, 2011 Didn't Thatcher and Co have to fix the problems made by the previous Labour Govt anyway? Ok so She sold off all our assets, but IIRC, by the end of the 80's The country was in a pretty damned good shape again.. Oh yes - Thatcher fixed loads of problems - just ask the miners! Speak to the vast number of people in the areas where generations have never worked because of the industries she ran into the ground and/or sold off! Wasn't 1987 the year of the biggest stock market crash ever in the UK? Thatcher did what all Tories do - made sure the well off were better off and the poor were poorer!
localzuk Posted March 24, 2011 Posted March 24, 2011 Oh yes - Thatcher fixed loads of problems - just ask the miners! Speak to the vast number of people in the areas where generations have never worked because of the industries she ran into the ground and/or sold off! Wasn't 1987 the year of the biggest stock market crash ever in the UK? Thatcher did what all Tories do - made sure the well off were better off and the poor were poorer! Why do people always point out industries that were not cost effective to run as examples of Thatcher's failure? People blame her for all sorts of industries failing, when a lot of it can be traced to other groups also, such as unions (look at the car industry! some years, the staff at British plants spent more time on strike than working, not to mention the quality of the cars being produced was sub par). Sometimes you simply have to face the facts - many of the industries that died out in the UK would have died out with or without Thatcher. Globalisation has seen to that. Why would a company pay £30k a year for someone to do a job here when they can do it for a third of the price in Korea, Taiwan, China, or a long list of other countries? Basically what I'm saying is 'stop burying your head in the sand and realise that the issues are not this government's fault. They are the fault of the previous government for NOT fixing things, they are our own faults for accepting ridiculous policies in government because they benefited us in the short term.'
AyatollahPies Posted March 24, 2011 Posted March 24, 2011 I'm afraid this thread just doesn't feel complete without any input from everyone's favourite joke & video thread posting, Tory hater. Where art thou Mattx? Where art thou? jcollings - The gap between rich and poor increased higher than ever before, under the last Labour government. Let's face it folks, it matters not which of the "big 3" you vote for. They are all alike. 1
jcollings Posted March 24, 2011 Posted March 24, 2011 Why do people always point out industries that were not cost effective to run as examples of Thatcher's failure? Because it is not and never has been true the coal industry was not cost effective!
jcollings Posted March 24, 2011 Posted March 24, 2011 jcollings - The gap between rich and poor increased higher than ever before, under the last Labour government. Let's face it folks, it matters not which of the "big 3" you vote for. They are all alike. I am not for a minute suggesting Labour didn't get things wrong in their time and as a socialist they were painful to watch as they abandoned all left wing policies freely! What I am saying is that people seem to think prior to that all was great and good - I am just pointing out the Tory government of Thatcher and Major did nothing but harm to the country.
localzuk Posted March 24, 2011 Posted March 24, 2011 Because it is not and never has been true the coal industry was not cost effective! Erm. The coal industry itself started shutting pits because their subsidies couldn't justify keeping them open, let alone commercial income. How can you possibly claim that the coal industry was cost effective?!
jcollings Posted March 24, 2011 Posted March 24, 2011 Erm. The coal industry itself started shutting pits because their subsidies couldn't justify keeping them open, let alone commercial income. How can you possibly claim that the coal industry was cost effective?! Because it's true. The industry needed reform and modernisation but it could have still been viable.
localzuk Posted March 24, 2011 Posted March 24, 2011 Because it's true. The industry needed reform and modernisation but it could have still been viable. The British Coal Board closed mines due to subsidies not being able to fund them, as foreign coal was cheaper due to lower wages compared to our highly paid miners. So, effectively, unions killed the mines by demanding such high pay... You're not providing any evidence of your claims of being viable, yet there's a wealth of information to show they weren't...
localzuk Posted March 24, 2011 Posted March 24, 2011 Do you really believe this crap ? Thatcher nailed the miners for bringing down the previous government.... it was never about subsidies. Arthur scargil said that thatcher wanted to destroy the industy ... and wanted to close X amount of pits. The governement denied it .... but after the strike the final number that closed made scargils numbers pale .. it was far more. But while were talking about subsidies ... lets scrap buses .... trains ... fishermen .... farmers .........factories powerstations !!!!!!! yes ... scrap them all because we dont need em ..... we have banks and banks print money ... YAY !!! Look were the tories and we have puppets on a string singing or praises ... give me strenght. You are quite obviously blinded by hatred for a single government in history, and it is preventing you from looking at a much bigger picture. Yes, privatisation of some industries was a mistake in my view (water, gas, electric, transport), but you simply have to face up to the fact that we live in a global society. Things change, whether you like it or not. Trying to nail all of that on a single person or a single government is ridiculous to say the least. I have a feeling that your views are based on your geography, and therefore due to either your own personal experiences in life, or those of family. I've not lived in mainland England for an overly long time, so am looking at this from the point of view of looking at all sides of the argument. I'd never say that Thatcher made no mistakes, but I'd also not say that what she did 'destroyed the country' (to paraphrase what someone said earlier).
localzuk Posted March 24, 2011 Posted March 24, 2011 (edited) "You are quite obviously blinded by hatred for a single government in history, and it is preventing you from looking at a much bigger picture. Remind me never to talk politics with you ever again. The problem is, you've so far not actually said anything other than blaming Thatcher for pretty much everything. Your only evidence was a comment from a union leader who had a vested interest in keeping miners employed at all costs! I am slowly but surely building up an opinion that unions are significantly to blame for many of the problems this country has faced for the last 30+ years! Edited March 24, 2011 by localzuk sp/You're/your
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now