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Coronavirus: General discussion (see opening post for rules)

Dos_Box

By Dos_Box
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The bit I find hard though, is if we wear need to wear masks, then:

 

A lot of us shouldn't be in, as there isn't that much space in our office say 3/5 share an office

I think the government is still advocating to travel during quieter periods, so should we all be working 10-2

We shouldn't do any work at all until rooms are empty or even been cleaned

Be ultra strict, no one knocks at the door

Basically be ruthless as if we're still in such a state that we need to wear masks indoors, then IT should be ultra-strict too

 

But we all know that isn't going to fly, if we start refusing to do thing instantly and so forth

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localzuk

localzuk

Posted
Posted
The bit I find hard though, is if we wear need to wear masks, then:

 

A lot of us shouldn't be in, as there isn't that much space in our office say 3/5 share an office

I think the government is still advocating to travel during quieter periods, so should we all be working 10-2

We shouldn't do any work at all until rooms are empty or even been cleaned

Be ultra strict, no one knocks at the door

Basically be ruthless as if we're still in such a state that we need to wear masks indoors, then IT should be ultra-strict too

 

But we all know that isn't going to fly, if we start refusing to do thing instantly and so forth

You say that but our Trust has agreed our policy for IT support here being:

 

1. No-one coming to the door - send a request via the helpdesk or phone.

2. We will book a time to come to the room when it is empty so as to not cross bubbles etc...

3. Our staff will wear a mask when cleaning and fixing PCs, to prevent splashback from the cleaning sprays etc...

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keyboards

keyboards

Posted
Posted
You say that but our Trust has agreed our policy for IT support here being:

 

1. No-one coming to the door - send a request via the helpdesk or phone.

2. We will book a time to come to the room when it is empty so as to not cross bubbles etc...

3. Our staff will wear a mask when cleaning and fixing PCs, to prevent splashback from the cleaning sprays etc...

 

I totally agree with all that, it's just will they adhere to it and I can't see that flying at our trusts at others sadly.

localzuk

localzuk

Posted
Posted
I totally agree with all that, it's just will they adhere to it and I can't see that flying at our trusts at others sadly.

I can't see how a school could follow the DfE guidance for ensuring bubbles etc without following those sort of rules to be honest. Going into rooms all across the school breaks down the bubble concept entirely.

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FishCustard

FishCustard

Posted
Posted
I can't see how a school could follow the DfE guidance for ensuring bubbles etc without following those sort of rules to be honest. Going into rooms all across the school breaks down the bubble concept entirely.

 

While I entirely agree that IT should be following guidelines along the lines of those you listed, I think the bubble concept is "only close, unmasked contact within bubbles" rather than "nobody can transit between bubbles under any circumstances". Could easily be wrong, but that's what I understand it to be.

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elsiegee40

elsiegee40

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I totally agree with what your doing localzuk, big issue is we did that I'm sure we'd get all sorts of comments and wouldn't be allowed to do it

 

The point is that if you have a way that you think you could work safer and still get the job done then ASK!

 

It’s one thing moaning on here about “we’d probably get all sorts of comments” and quite another actually putting forward a workable solution to your line manager.

 

People like solutions better than problems; they’re more likely to accept (especially if it doesn’t actually cost lots of money). Until you ask then you will never know if they will accept it or not.

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DrBeaker

DrBeaker

Posted
Posted
I can't see how a school could follow the DfE guidance for ensuring bubbles etc without following those sort of rules to be honest. Going into rooms all across the school breaks down the bubble concept entirely.
I've been thinking this myself, how am I supposed to leave my office to go to the loo or staff kitchen to make a drink with the bubbles setup and keep the bubbles intact?

 

I've followed the advice of a fellow edugeeker here a few months ago and said this is what I'm doing, had no objections. Will be doing similar again from next week and locking the office door.

elsiegee40

elsiegee40

Posted
Posted
I've been thinking this myself, how am I supposed to leave my office to go to the loo or staff kitchen to make a drink with the bubbles setup and keep the bubbles intact?
Go in lesson times when fewer people are in the corridors. Avoid busy times like breaks and lesson changeovers. Wear a mask if it makes you feel more comfortable. It’s not rocket science.
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keyboards

keyboards

Posted
Posted (edited)
The point is that if you have a way that you think you could work safer and still get the job done then ASK!

 

It’s one thing moaning on here about “we’d probably get all sorts of comments” and quite another actually putting forward a workable solution to your line manager.

 

People like solutions better than problems; they’re more likely to accept (especially if it doesn’t actually cost lots of money). Until you ask then you will never know if they will accept it or not.

 

I don't disagree with you, but it's a lot different when you're on the floor there, got junior staff, if you start saying no and questioning things, we all know sometimes mood can change towards you, jobs people give you, when it comes to performance review, pay grades etc, I totally off the record agree with you but in all jobs including ours, actuality is very different.

Edited by keyboards
DrBeaker

DrBeaker

Posted
Posted
Go in lesson times when fewer people are in the corridors. Avoid busy times like breaks and lesson changeovers. Wear a mask if it makes you feel more comfortable. It’s not rocket science.
True. But with all respect staggered start and finish times, staggered lunch times especially etc leaves few windows to actually move about the site, fix things, go to the loo etc. compared to normal times.
CAM

CAM

Posted
Posted

It's a good idea to avoid moving about during lesson changeover anyway as you end up shepherding a tidal wave of kids!

 

Our school is minimising the changeover though by keeping kids in the same room primary school style except for science labs to do practicals, etc.

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keyboards

keyboards

Posted
Posted (edited)
Does anyone know what the actual advice is on travel these days, as there is so many mixed messages, is it still trave outside peak periods? Or travel as normal or what? Because Tfl and Thameslink are both saying different things.:rolleyes: Edited by keyboards
MrFlibble

MrFlibble

Posted
Posted (edited)
Since they're in the same location all day, every day having to wear a mask for the duration would not be healthy. These people are behind screens however, so their exhalations are still controlled to a degree.
Many of these people are not behind screens; I agree with you it would be unhealthy.

Remember, mask wearing is currently only to be in communal areas, not the classroom, and not a canteen for obvious reasons. The length of time these will be worn is limited.

I'm glad you agree they are not suitable for classrooms; unfortunately some people disagree with us and want to take this even further.

 

I still disagree over communal areas as it's not really enforceable (unless all staff have easy access to a list of exactly who is subject to an exemption, or you force those people to wear lanyards/badges, which I'm not entirely comfortable about) and there are questions regarding the safe storage of the face coverings and keeping them clean which are unresolved, and then there are issues with disposal if we're talking about disposable masks.

 

Masks aren't for the wearer's protection. They're to curtail a person's exhalations for the benefit of everyone else. To this end, a dirty pocket will make little difference to the wearer.

I'm not sure about that; do kids keep their pockets clean enough at all times that the contents could be breathed in?

Can I ask why you're so against them? It's pretty sound in principle, and for once the instruction is relatively clear.

Can I ask why you're so for them?

 

Sweden is doing very well and they don't mandate masks in any community setting.

 

COVID-19 is more uncomfortable.

Most people who are exposed to SARS-Cov-2 will not develop Covid19 symptoms; of those that do, it will be mild for the vast majority.

 

If you are talking about those who get seriously ill, then the same could be said for 'flu.

 

Did you know around 12 children under 15 die annually each year from 'flu in England alone?

 

A lot of people in Sweden are angry at their government for getting their response wrong. Sweden is 7th highest for deaths per capita... So, not exactly a country to go "ooh, they've done well" at.

This is a false claim; I've spoken to people based in Sweden and the vast majority do not think this way. Only a small, vocal minority do.

 

As for deaths per capita, I think you should measure that at the end of the pandemic! If you compare Sweden to France or Spain, it is pretty clear that Sweden have got over the worst of it relatively early on, while France and Spain are seeing a resurgence. You need to look at the overall strategy, and all the evidence so far suggests Sweden got it right. It's certainly far too early to suggest otherwise, especially as the trends do not support your position.

Only to people who want something to be divisive. It is literally a small bit of cloth over your face. There's NOTHING inherently divisive about that.

You are entitled to your opinion. But others disagree.

 

Are you aware of the increase in abuse towards people who are exempt, including people with autism? If you're not, I'll be happy to quote some examples of this.

Now this one I agree with. Yes, they make communication difficult. But its not the worst trade off...

The development needs of children should not be swept aside like this; the interests children and young people have thus far been put last in this pandemic and it's time to put their needs first.

These are minor issues that can be resolved with an ounce of forethought.

I don't agree; I've not seen anyone fully address all the issues. Our SLT is against them because they know of the problems they will cause.

In a school? We collect all sorts of data... On the street? It is difficult, sure.

A class teacher would have instant access to the data, but if they are not wearing them in classrooms and if you are wanting enforcement on corridors, how would any staff in the corridors at the time be supposed to know who is/isn't exempt? Therefore, you can't really enforce it.

That's on the staff to keep on top of. Considering children are supposed to be staying in their bubbles, there should be limited "non-staffed" time where issues like this can occur.
Start/end of the day, between lessons, break times, lunch times.

Just because staff are legally exempt, it doesn't mean there isn't a company policy to wear one.

That would not be enforceable in my opinion. I know for a fact staff cannot be made to wear face coverings in settings such as shops and public transport, so I fail to see how a school would be different.

I also see rail platform and gate staff wearing masks every time I go in the station. Police officers always have masks. I know bus drivers who wear one and find it very irritating when passengers argue about it when they come on without a mask. It's really not that hard to wear a mask!

It's not true to suggest all these staff wear masks all the time and they legally do not have to and their employer cannot make them.

You can enforce the wearing of one in school, if someone is exempt then it's down to your SLT to let people know. Every kid that comes into my exam hall gets their uniform quietly checked by me and told "tuck your shirt in, put your tie on, and please do your belt buckle up as your trousers are sagging and the belt is hitting students in the face as you walk past their desk." (yes that happened!). It isn't hard to enforce uniform rules.

It's easy to say "it isn't hard" but many of the staff I've spoken to say a different view. Yes you can tell people to tuck their shirt in but you couldn't tell a kid to wear a mask unless you have checked they are not exempt. If you are in a big school that could be a lot of names and faces and you would not be able to know all of them.

 

Bullying can happen from any vector for any reason. It's a schools job to crack down on it. As for the political divisiveness that is a result of lack of education in what masks do and why they are worn. Guess what the job of a school is? :rolleyes:

That's not a good reason to mandate masks in schools. The mandating of masks in public transport and retail settings has caused exempt people to not only be bullied by others, but also intimidated by some staff. There are plenty of examples of this documented on social media if you don't believe me.

And the designs thing is just silly. If a mask is that scary it probably fails the public decency check and can be told to get a different one. I'm sure schools will have some spare disposable masks at hand for those situations.

Firstly, it is very subjective and different staff will draw the line in different ways, so it's yet another issue which you have to get pastoral staff involved in to make a judgement.

 

As for advocating disposable masks, this isn't what the WHO recommend, and what about the environmental concerns? Also do you deny that littering of disposable masks is already becoming a problem in some places, and if you forced students to wear these, you would be creating an even bigger problem?

 

But you seem pretty dead set against wearing them so....have fun arguing with the boss next week I guess?

My boss is against them too, so no problem there :D

 

Right I'm going to get something off my chest, and it likely won't be a very popular opinion. Sorry in advance if you are offended, it's really not my intention.

I have just returned from 2 weeks in Italy, and, literally, nearly everyone was wearing a mask/face covering. The amount of non-children I saw not wearing masks in shops and on public transport, in 2 weeks, was certainly less than 10. If you don't wear a mask, you don't get on the bus and you are marched out of shops. I spent half of my holiday in a very popular (with Italians) town in Sicily. The main street is narrow, and there were 10s of thousands of Italians on holiday in this town. I'd say around 3 quarters of people were wearing a mask, outdoors, on this 3/4 mile long street. One thing I noticed is that on most of the signage, there is no mention of exemptions.

Yes they don't care about people with asthma, autism and other conditions over there.

 

That's now how we should run our society.

 

Now compare that to the UK. I went into Primark a couple of days ago, and within 10 seconds I came across 10 people without a mask/covering. The difference was startling. The government has come up with the list of exemptions, but to be honest I wish they hadn't.

That's easy for you to say but I would argue it lacks compassion for others.

The exemption list should be much smaller and not include things like anxiety and asthma. Asthma UK, on their website, states: "Most people with asthma, even if it’s severe, can manage to wear a face mask for a short period of time, and shouldn't worry if they need to wear one. Wearing a mask does not reduce a person’s oxygen supply or cause a build-up of carbon dioxide. You may have read stories that say that it can, but this isn’t true." Every bit of signage mentions something about exemptions.

Well, you are entitled to your opinion, but the law disagrees with you and many others do too. We will never get consensus on this issue but the law in the UK regarding exemptions is not going to change.

 

I'm sorry but why should I be put at risk because people with anxiety and asthma and some other exemptions aren't wearing a mask

I'm sorry but why should people with anxiety, asthma and other exemptions be excluded from society or put through extreme discomfort just to make you feel less "at risk"?

It's selfish.

On the contrary; people who disregard the needs of those with exemptions are the ones being as you describe.

If they can't wear one, they need to keep trying until they find one they are comfortable in. If they still feel they can't, they shouldn't be out and about mixing with the general public.

On the contrary; it is unlawful for you to exclude these people from society.

 

If you want to exclude all risks from viruses, then it is not others who need to stay at home and exclude themselves from society; you are looking at it the wrong way round.

My wife's grandparents hate wearing masks. I totally understand why - they have spent their entire life, much longer than mine, never needing to wear a mask. So it's not as easy for them. However, rather than inflicting themselves on other people, they just don't go out as much. And when they do go out, they always (as much as they hate it!) wear their masks.

It's a real shame they feel they cannot go out as much as they did before masks were mandated. This is not something we should see in a civilised society. It would not be the case in a country like Sweden, who has approached this far better than we have

 

Of course, there are some genuine reasons for not wearing a mask/covering. There are some obvious physical disabilities, and then there's the whole barrier to lip reading thing. There aren't many ways some of these obstacles can be overcome, I totally understand that. But be honest, of all the people you'll see today not wearing a mask where it is required, what percentage have a valid reason, and what percentage are lazy, selfish, doing it to prove a point etc. I try not to be judgemental, and generally I'm not, but the amount of selfishness in this country has staggered me over the last few months. If you give people a list of exemptions to get out of doing something they don't like doing, of course they're going to try their very best to make sure they match one of the exemptions...

I applaud you for trying; my advice would be to keep trying and you will get there.

 

The bit I find hard though, is if we wear need to wear masks, then:

 

A lot of us shouldn't be in, as there isn't that much space in our office say 3/5 share an office

I think the government is still advocating to travel during quieter periods, so should we all be working 10-2

Firstly, yes you are right with the logic (except we should be in)

Secondly if you are referring to public transport, then on many routes trains (not so sure about buses) are actually busier at those times than the traditional "peak" times!

We shouldn't do any work at all until rooms are empty or even been cleaned

Be ultra strict, no one knocks at the door

Basically be ruthless as if we're still in such a state that we need to wear masks indoors, then IT should be ultra-strict too

 

But we all know that isn't going to fly, if we start refusing to do thing instantly and so forth

If the aim was to eliminate the virus, then yes.

 

But in reality we are told it is here to stay and we have to learn to live with it. Just as we had to do in 1918.

Does anyone know what the actual advice is on travel these days, as there is so many mixed messages, is it still trave outside peak periods? Or travel as normal or what? Because Tfl and Thameslink are both saying different things.:rolleyes:

The advice is to travel "off peak" and the vast majority are doing that, therefore most peak trains are very lightly loaded. There will always be exceptions, of course, and things will change, on some routes at least, in September. For example yesterday morning the 07:21 from Stevenage to London had only 50 passengers on board the entire 12 coach train. This would normally be full and standing, with perhaps 1000 people on board. Only two people in the 12th coach!

Edited by MrFlibble
MrFlibble

MrFlibble

Posted
Posted

Here are some examples demonstrating how people with exemptions have been treated:

This is how people are being made to feel:

 

 

https://twitter.com/moodycowhere/status/1288557070267174913

i was thrown out of a charity store yesterday after being shouted at/threatened with police AFTER i explained im exempt from wearing a mask. 4 staff bullied me so bad. is it legal to abuse a disabled person with autism? can they refuse to let me shop?

@DisabilityUK

 

 

https://twitter.com/tragicjodie/status/1287196259045068800

I have one of these cards as i can struggle wearing a mask due to sensory needs associated with my autism. Tho, seems that staff in a shop today still didn’t really believe me, rolled there eyes, stared at me + my friend round the shop & told me she “guessed it was okay”

 

 

I had to leave the shop yesterday as my son became so distressed

 

 

we were the only ones not wearing a mask. He is 23, and has autism. He used to love going shopping and is well known by all the staff. It broke my heart

 

 

I had to leave a shop yesterday. I got so paranoid about being in a shop without a mask. Everyone looking at me in disgust. Took me a few hours to calm myself afterwards. I've lost my independence at 31 years old because of this mandate! It's gutting. I hope your son is okay x

 

 

For anyone that doesn't know the lanyard Riley my autistic grandson is wearing round his neck means he has special needs. Some shops recognise it some dont. I took Riley in Wilkinson's today I had my mask but Riley is exempt from wearing due to having autism.

The security guard argued with me and wasnt going to allow me in. He was very rude and very unpleasant. I managed to speak to the manager she didnt have a clue what the lanyard meant, but apologised for the security guards behaviour.

I really think shops should be educated about special needs. It would make shopping trips a lot easier, shopping with a autistic child can be very difficult at the best of times without people like this making it worse

While I recognise that we will never get consensus on the mandating of masks in any setting, I do hope everyone would agree that the way these people have been treated is not acceptable.

elsiegee40

elsiegee40

Posted
Posted
Here are some examples demonstrating how people with exemptions have been treated:

This is how people are being made to feel:

 

 

https://twitter.com/moodycowhere/status/1288557070267174913

 

 

 

https://twitter.com/tragicjodie/status/1287196259045068800

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

While I recognise that we will never get consensus on the mandating of masks in any setting, I do hope everyone would agree that the way these people have been treated is not acceptable.

 

Of course we agree that this isn’t acceptable. But the stupidity of some is not a reason to say others shouldn’t wear a mask.

 

Schools manage kids who are “different “ and bullying in their settings all the time. They have done for ever. They are more than capable of managing masks.

MrFlibble

MrFlibble

Posted
Posted

That article makes some incorrect statements/assumptions, such as this:

Achieving herd immunity was one of Tegnell’s original aims – but antibody surveys suggest only about 20 per cent of people in Stockholm have been infected, similar to levels in London and New York. That is far short of near the 70 per cent level estimated to be needed.

 

This is wrong on so many levels; for a start their statement appears to be suggesting that only people who test positive for an antibody test have any immunity; this not only ignores the fact that the body's ability to produce antibodies is not necessarily detectable in an antibody test, but also ignores the crucial role that T Cells play in fighting Sars-Cov-2.

 

I'd have thought the journalist responsible for this article would have been aware of the role of T-cells, given that the importance of T-cell immunity was highlighted over 3 months ago! A very poor effort.

Of course we agree that this isn’t acceptable. But the stupidity of some is not a reason to say others shouldn’t wear a mask.

I'm not sure what you are saying exactly. If you look at my earlier post, is there anything in particular I said that you disagree with?

 

Schools manage kids who are “different “ and bullying in their settings all the time. They have done for ever. They are more than capable of managing masks.

This isn't a justifiable reason to add yet another reason for bullying, and yet another problem for school staff to face at what is already going to be a very challenging time. Don't you think school staff have enough on their plate as it is, without having to police the wearing of masks?

 

There is going to be no compulsion to wear masks at my school unless it is forced upon the school. But even then I cannot see staff being forced to wear masks, as I am not aware of staff in any other non-medical community setting being forced to wear them. Those who claim it can be forced upon staff cannot offer any legal precedent for this, and cannot offer any example of any other role where this is legally required. That's because it cannot be forced upon us.

elsiegee40

elsiegee40

Posted
Posted

:mod: @MrFlibble I am posting this as a moderator.

 

You clearly have strong anti-mask views. Your passion is clear is clear from the length of your posts which I suspect many will simply bypass due to TL;DR.

 

We are all going to have to agree that views differ and that neither minds nor government guidance will be changed by posting on EduGeek.

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