Coronavirus: General discussion (see opening post for rules)

[mikeprice]

As far as school busses are concerned - how does the driver enforce it

 

OK - they can refuse entry to anyone who is not wearing a mask - but what do they do after they start driving and someone's little darling takes their mask off followed by all their mates

do they stop and refuse to continue until they all have their masks on?

Who is responsible for checking this hasn't happened?

What sanctions can be put in place?

How does the driver recognise who it was?

 

 

Seems like one of those regulations where it will work just fine in nice schools where the kids behave and the parents are committed to education

I taught/teched in one like that for a couple of years

Since then I have taught/teched in school at the other end of the scale

Seems to me that people who come up with this stuff only consider the former type of school and not the latter

[FishCustard]

This is a non-political position, but U-turn seems to be the 'go-to' phrase currently, both in the press and social media. Is another perspective that following WHO advice a few days ago, that the decision is a logical step as a result? I just fear the over use of U-turn can blunt the more detailed analysis and debate? Should I get the hard hat at this point?

 

I agree, here and in general. Best not criticise people for making the right call, even eventually. Judge their overall response, and speed of action, absolutely - but obsessing over "U-turns" by the press is not helpful I think.

[Andrew_C]

If it weren't for the fact that U turn follows U turn, like night follows day, I'd agree.

 

However, the inability to get ANYTHING right 1st time...

[CAM]

What are our rights here? Can we be forced to wear a mask? If we refuse, can they make us redundant or even sack us?

 

In terms of pupils having to wear them, I don't see how it can possibly be enforced by school staff; how are staff supposed to know who is covered by an exemption? Would the school have to have a list? and what could the punishment be?

 

Also surely this would make it difficult to recognise students, especially when relying on CCTV?

 

And how would you get to know the new Year 7s?

 

And would the school be able to, or required to, mandate masks of a particular design/colour? What if students come into school with a comical face covering? e.g. crazy teeth, a Joker, or Batman?

 

Would this not result in discarded masks around some school grounds if students wear disposable masks?

 

I quite agree. It's utter madness.

 

Why wouldn't you wear a mask? If you are exempt then you are exempt, otherwise you should be wearing one if asked to. Also mask designs are not a problem, I quite like that it's a fashion thing with absolutely no rules right now and the important thing is just to get people wearing them, not what's on them (barring the usual caveats of general public decency).

[MrFlibble]

Why wouldn't you wear a mask?

They are uncomfortable

There is no justifiable reason to wear them in a school environment; sensible countries such as Sweden don't encourage masks in any environment let alone schools

They are divisive

They make communication difficult

There is the issue of storing them when not being worn, keeping them clean, etc

Enforcement is impossible; how do you know who is exempt?

They are likely to cause issues such as conflicts, bullying, peer pressure etc

 

If you are exempt then you are exempt, otherwise you should be wearing one if asked to

That doesn't answer my question. If we refuse to, what are the options? Can they just sack us or do they have to offer a redundancy package?

 

Also mask designs are not a problem, I quite like that it's a fashion thing with absolutely no rules right now and the important thing is just to get people wearing them, not what's on them (barring the usual caveats of general public decency).

So you think there is no issue with students wearing almost any design they want?

[CAM]

There are employees out there already who are told to wear a mask at work. Ask them when you next see one. I'd guess it's down to your employer's disciplinary policy for refusing to comply with a request.

 

Being uncomfortable isn't a reason to not wear one. The reasons not to are listed in the government exemptions list covering disability, lip-reading for communication, etc. I personally find them very uncomfortable and avoid wearing them outside as I don't see the need, but in shops or on the train I still wear it even if I am the only one there. Why? Because those are the rules and what I have been asked to do. The only time I haven't is when the mask got soaked in a freak downpour rendering it useless by the time I boarded the train.

 

Storing them, I put mine in my pocket when not using it and use hand sanitizer after handling it (remember what's on the mask is hazardous to others, not you). They are re-usable and go in with the rest of my laundry (My Oddballs sells packs of four for a tenner). If you plan to wear the mask for a long time, you can carry a spare, the store owner at my local GW store carries five masks per day as he wears them all shift.

 

Divisiveness, why? What makes something everyone is doing divisive? Masks are no longer unusual, they are a normal part of public life and wearing one isn't weird or out of place. A few bad eggs are abusive over them but it is nowhere near as bad as America.

 

Exemptions and enforcement, it's a school. If you can enforce uniform you can enforce masks. "Where is your mask?" is no different to "Where are your school shoes?" Some wear trainers for a reason, the school will be aware of it like any other uniform exemption. If anything masks can be easier thanks to the sunflower lanyard and if someone is misusing that then there isn't anything you can do.

 

And designs? Down to your school. I have some professional black masks and some patterned masks. Just enjoy it until someone does introduce a uniform policy surrounding them, it's no harm unless something is blatantly offensive.

[Ditto]

Would be great to see a school get creative and get the pupils to design and make one as part of the Design and Technology curriculum. Maybe incorporate the school badge/logo or a portfolio of designs. Let the pupils sell them to raise money - would love to see a bit of entrepreneurship encouraged.

[elsiegee40]

What are our rights here? Can we be forced to wear a mask? If we refuse, can they make us redundant or even sack us?

If it’s the law*, or your employer brings in a change to the staff code of conduct/dress code that you must, then yes your employer can insist and if you refuse to comply then the staff disciplinary process could be followed. That usually starts with a warning.

 

No they can’t make you redundant for failure to comply. There are strict laws surrounding redundancy, but if disciplinary issues are escalated then you could be sacked.

 

*Obviously some are legally exempt from wearing masks and what was said yesterday gave very specific criteria when masks should be worn in schools.

 

In terms of pupils having to wear them, I don't see how it can possibly be enforced by school staff; how are staff supposed to know who is covered by an exemption? Would the school have to have a list? and what could the punishment be?

 

Also surely this would make it difficult to recognise students, especially when relying on CCTV?

 

And how would you get to know the new Year 7s?

 

And would the school be able to, or required to, mandate masks of a particular design/colour? What if students come into school with a comical face covering? e.g. crazy teeth, a Joker, or Batman?

 

Would this not result in discarded masks around some school grounds if students wear disposable masks?

 

I quite agree. It's utter madness.

Every school already enforces the law and its own code of conduct and uniform policy with the students. This is no different. There will be teething issues and stories in the Daily Fail, but they can and will enforce it if they have to.

 

It is going to cause problems for certain students, but schools will have a pretty good idea who those vulnerable individuals are already. They’ll certainly know who is medically exempt as asthma, etc would be on the child’s record. There are many problems, but none that can’t be overcome with common sense and consistent use of the school’s disciplinary policies.

Edited August 26, 2020 by elsiegee40

[stevejp]

If it weren't for the fact that U turn follows U turn, like night follows day, I'd agree.

 

However, the inability to get ANYTHING right 1st time...

 

A very good and valid point...

[Andrew_C]

One thought on the masks.

 

If you choose to wear a cloth mask made at home, fine.

 

If your employer requires you to wear one they have to provide it, and it must be appropriate PPE.

[mikeprice]

It would help if they make the policy say that everyone has to either wear a mask - or a badge/lanyard showing a pass confirming that they do not need to wear one

 

otherwise some kids will claim they are exempt and see if they can get away with it

 

What happens if some entitled parents claim their darling gets very anxious when wearing a mask so is exempt

would this count??

 

I presume it would???

 

I also presume it could snowball

[jmak]

The only reason this was a U-turn is that they made a clear statement that they wouldn't be reviewing their policy.

 

If the advice changes and you change your policy, you have done the right thing - which is what eventually happened. The problem comes from the fact that the advice changed last Friday, the Scottish government responded at the beginning of the week, then Downing Street said they wouldn't change policy and then they changed policy.

 

As far as I can see, the only harm done was to themselves...

[keyboards]

My glasses steam up when I wear one:D

[MrFlibble]

There are employees out there already who are told to wear a mask at work. Ask them when you next see one. I'd guess it's down to your employer's disciplinary policy for refusing to comply with a request.

Being uncomfortable isn't a reason to not wear one. The reasons not to are listed in the government exemptions list covering disability, lip-reading for communication, etc. I personally find them very uncomfortable and avoid wearing them outside as I don't see the need, but in shops or on the train I still wear it even if I am the only one there. Why? Because those are the rules and what I have been asked to do. The only time I haven't is when the mask got soaked in a freak downpour rendering it useless by the time I boarded the train.

Retail & public transport staff are exempt; can you think of any examples where staff were previously never expected to wear masks and yet are now legally required to wear them?

 

I can't think of any...

Divisiveness, why? What makes something everyone is doing divisive? Masks are no longer unusual, they are a normal part of public life and wearing one isn't weird or out of place. A few bad eggs are abusive over them but it is nowhere near as bad as America.

If you think the mandating of masks has not been divisive, then I can only assume you've not become aware of the numerous arguments and disputes that have occurred

Exemptions and enforcement, it's a school. If you can enforce uniform you can enforce masks. "Where is your mask?" is no different to "Where are your school shoes?" Some wear trainers for a reason, the school will be aware of it like any other uniform exemption.

If I see a student wearing trainers I assume they've had a conversation with their form tutor/house leader and have permission.

 

So I should do the same with anyone not wearing a mask, right?

If anything masks can be easier thanks to the sunflower lanyard and if someone is misusing that then there isn't anything you can do.

Not sure about this; can we really force kids with exemptions to wear a label?

 

And what if they forget their lanyard?

 

Is there no risk this could lead to bullying?

And designs? Down to your school. I have some professional black masks and some patterned masks. Just enjoy it until someone does introduce a uniform policy surrounding them, it's no harm unless something is blatantly offensive.

What if a kid wears a scary mask and ends up sat near a kid who doesn't like it? Have you seen some of the novelty masks out there?

 

What if a kid loses their mask?

 

If they are going to get into trouble, do you think other kids may hide then?

 

You say masks should be stored in pockets, but can we be sure kids will keep their pockets clean?

 

If disposable masks are used, do you think litter definitely won't be a problem?

[ICTDirect_Dave]

Retail & public transport staff are exempt

Since they're in the same location all day, every day having to wear a mask for the duration would not be healthy. These people are behind screens however, so their exhalations are still controlled to a degree.

Remember, mask wearing is currently only to be in communal areas, not the classroom, and not a canteen for obvious reasons. The length of time these will be worn is limited.

You say masks should be stored in pockets, but can we be sure kids will keep their pockets clean?

Masks aren't for the wearer's protection. They're to curtail a person's exhalations for the benefit of everyone else. To this end, a dirty pocket will make little difference to the wearer.

 

 

 

Can I ask why you're so against them? It's pretty sound in principle, and for once the instruction is relatively clear.

[localzuk]

They are uncomfortable

 

COVID-19 is more uncomfortable.

There is no justifiable reason to wear them in a school environment; sensible countries such as Sweden don't encourage masks in any environment let alone schools

 

A lot of people in Sweden are angry at their government for getting their response wrong. Sweden is 7th highest for deaths per capita... So, not exactly a country to go "ooh, they've done well" at.

They are divisive

 

Only to people who want something to be divisive. It is literally a small bit of cloth over your face. There's NOTHING inherently divisive about that.

They make communication difficult

 

Now this one I agree with. Yes, they make communication difficult. But its not the worst trade off...

There is the issue of storing them when not being worn, keeping them clean, etc

 

These are minor issues that can be resolved with an ounce of forethought.

Enforcement is impossible; how do you know who is exempt?

 

In a school? We collect all sorts of data... On the street? It is difficult, sure.

They are likely to cause issues such as conflicts, bullying, peer pressure etc

 

That's on the staff to keep on top of. Considering children are supposed to be staying in their bubbles, there should be limited "non-staffed" time where issues like this can occur.

[CAM]

Just because staff are legally exempt, it doesn't mean there isn't a company policy to wear one. I also see rail platform and gate staff wearing masks every time I go in the station. Police officers always have masks. I know bus drivers who wear one and find it very irritating when passengers argue about it when they come on without a mask. It's really not that hard to wear a mask!

 

You can enforce the wearing of one in school, if someone is exempt then it's down to your SLT to let people know. Every kid that comes into my exam hall gets their uniform quietly checked by me and told "tuck your shirt in, put your tie on, and please do your belt buckle up as your trousers are sagging and the belt is hitting students in the face as you walk past their desk." (yes that happened!). It isn't hard to enforce uniform rules.

 

Bullying can happen from any vector for any reason. It's a schools job to crack down on it. As for the political divisiveness that is a result of lack of education in what masks do and why they are worn. Guess what the job of a school is?

 

And the designs thing is just silly. If a mask is that scary it probably fails the public decency check and can be told to get a different one. I'm sure schools will have some spare disposable masks at hand for those situations.

 

But you seem pretty dead set against wearing them so....have fun arguing with the boss next week I guess?

[JordanT91]

Right I'm going to get something off my chest, and it likely won't be a very popular opinion. Sorry in advance if you are offended, it's really not my intention.

 

I have just returned from 2 weeks in Italy, and, literally, nearly everyone was wearing a mask/face covering. The amount of non-children I saw not wearing masks in shops and on public transport, in 2 weeks, was certainly less than 10. If you don't wear a mask, you don't get on the bus and you are marched out of shops. I spent half of my holiday in a very popular (with Italians) town in Sicily. The main street is narrow, and there were 10s of thousands of Italians on holiday in this town. I'd say around 3 quarters of people were wearing a mask, outdoors, on this 3/4 mile long street. One thing I noticed is that on most of the signage, there is no mention of exemptions.

 

Now compare that to the UK. I went into Primark a couple of days ago, and within 10 seconds I came across 10 people without a mask/covering. The difference was startling. The government has come up with the list of exemptions, but to be honest I wish they hadn't. The exemption list should be much smaller and not include things like anxiety and asthma. Asthma UK, on their website, states: "Most people with asthma, even if it’s severe, can manage to wear a face mask for a short period of time, and shouldn't worry if they need to wear one. Wearing a mask does not reduce a person’s oxygen supply or cause a build-up of carbon dioxide. You may have read stories that say that it can, but this isn’t true." Every bit of signage mentions something about exemptions.

 

I'm sorry but why should I be put at risk because people with anxiety and asthma and some other exemptions aren't wearing a mask. It's selfish. If they can't wear one, they need to keep trying until they find one they are comfortable in. If they still feel they can't, they shouldn't be out and about mixing with the general public. My wife's grandparents hate wearing masks. I totally understand why - they have spent their entire life, much longer than mine, never needing to wear a mask. So it's not as easy for them. However, rather than inflicting themselves on other people, they just don't go out as much. And when they do go out, they always (as much as they hate it!) wear their masks.

 

Of course, there are some genuine reasons for not wearing a mask/covering. There are some obvious physical disabilities, and then there's the whole barrier to lip reading thing. There aren't many ways some of these obstacles can be overcome, I totally understand that. But be honest, of all the people you'll see today not wearing a mask where it is required, what percentage have a valid reason, and what percentage are lazy, selfish, doing it to prove a point etc. I try not to be judgemental, and generally I'm not, but the amount of selfishness in this country has staggered me over the last few months. If you give people a list of exemptions to get out of doing something they don't like doing, of course they're going to try their very best to make sure they match one of the exemptions...

[localzuk]

My wife's grandparents hate wearing masks. I totally understand why - they have spent their entire life, much longer than mine, never needing to wear a mask. So it's not as easy for them. However, rather than inflicting themselves on other people, they just don't go out as much. And when they do go out, they always (as much as they hate it!) wear their masks.

 

I hate having anything touching my face. I struggle washing my face every day. Always been an issue, since I was a kid and nearly drowned in a pool. Pretty much a phobia at this point. I struggle to swim because I won't put my face in the water. Putting my motorcycle helmet on is a big struggle and I hate it. But, I always wear a mask when I am asked to.

Edited August 27, 2020 by localzuk

[Norphy]

I can't hand on heart say that I disagree with any of that. As mentioned in another post, I've just come back from Scotland and in the small part that I was in, wearing masks was pretty much engrained up there. Come back to London and it's a different story.

 

 

I don't want to go back into work, not at the moment. Putting up some Perspex screens around our desks doesn't even begin to address the issues that I have with going back, namely that there are about to be upwards of 900 snot nosed plague carriers returning to a cramped Victorian era building where you barely have enough room to breathe at the best of times. Working in a cramped office with up to nine other people, up three flights of stairs and only one entrance and exit into the office doesn't help either and the thought of returning to that while people are still dying from this and while parts of country are going in and out of lockdown is concerning to put it mildly.

 

The other issue that I have is that I've been working in schools for coming on 18 years and I've always been aware that I get colds more often than a lot of people. It's got worse since I started this job and I suspect that's because of the conditions I've just described above. If someone does get infected with this virus, I think it would spread like wildfire.

[the_quick]

Wearing a mask can be uncomfortable, but a ventilator more so...

 

I met yesterday with a outside contractor, that I have very good relation, we very often just sit down, have a chat, tea and biscuits. He had contracted covid sometime ago (April) and he is more less alright but... When he got it he spent 10 days in a hospital, because his heart was barely working, to this day his heart is not right - he has to take a handful of pills now. In my eyes he is one least people, that would be so badly affected. Healthy chap, in his late 40ties, slim, physically active - all in all in good shape, no underlining conditions.

 

I'm similar age and similar fitness - and now that got me really worried. So I welcome very much idea that kids have to wear masks in communal areas. No one knows how badly we will be affected if we get Covid, so I will do everything in my power not to get, stop it spreading and protect others with my actions.

 

Masks in shops - in my local Lidl all members of staff wear a mask if they are in main shop area, stocking shelves and such, they take it off if they work at the till, as they have screens there. So far I saw one couple (customers) not wearing masks - young people, not sure maybe exempt - generally people do follow rules there.

 

I really get annoyed with these arguments against wearing masks - this is to protect everyone, limit the spread of the virus and for most people it is for short period of time. Doctors wear them for hours, I never heard one complaining. Next we will start hearing arguments against seat belts in cars.

[localzuk]

The other day on the bus here, there were 9 of us on the bus. 6 wearing masks. 2 not wearing masks were a young mum with her child and a friend, and 1 was an older frail looking lady. Of the remaining 6, 3 were wearing their masks properly. 2 of the remaining 3 had their nose out, and one had basically only their top lip covered - it was under their nose and rolled up over their top lip...

 

So, yeah, we don't seem to be doing well down here.

[mikeprice]

Dunno how typical this area is but I always see people in Tesco who don't have a mask - but very few.

A low enough number to be people with genuine reasons - maybe

 

Although I do sometimes see one or two that seem to have a sort of smug smile on their face as they walk around maskless - so these MAY be just deniers

 

Personally I hate wearing a mask - makes me feel cut off from other people and sort of lonely

 

but whatever - I do it anyway

 

Sister-in-law got a lesson in science and reliable sources a few days ago when she mentioned to her sister (my wife) that she thinks masks are unhealthy because you are breathing in your own carbon dioxide and some other dumb stuff

source - her daughter on Facebook - that well know reliable source of information

this happens quite often - a few months ago all Heinz Beans tins contain worms - apparently

it was 'all over Facebook'

[elsiegee40]

When we flew back from Down Under in mid March and the world closed down behind us, we wore the cloth N95 particle filter masks that I usually wear to the wildlife rescue where I volunteer. We actually took them because of the bush fires in Melbourne, but didn’t need them then luckily.

 

I made some cloth masks on our return for the family as I had a gut feeling they were going to be necessary.

 

Without fail, right from the start of lockdown, I have worn a mask in enclosed spaces like shops and the supermarkets as I regard it as the polite thing to do. I don’t want to infect anyone; as far as I am aware I have never had the virus.

 

I’m on a train after a night in London right now

 

It was weird this morning. Wet Sunday mornings in January are busier than this

 

Masks were consistently worn in enclosed spaces... but too many only covered the mouth.

 

IF YOU’RE GOING TO WEAR A MASK, COVER YOUR NOSE. THERE’S NO POINT OTHERWISE! [emoji849]

Edited August 27, 2020 by elsiegee40

[FishCustard]

 

IF YOU’RE GOING TO WEAR A MASK, COVER YOUR NOSE. THERE’S NO POINT OTHERWISE! [emoji849]

 

Indeed. There is a name for such uncovered noses, but best not repeated on a professional forum.