Do we need Flash or Java anymore?

[mikeprice]

Glad I am not still in my last school - most of the software used flash (and was labelled as compatible with Windows 95 upwards!!) and most of the websites they used for teaching also used flash

 

wonder what their new support group have done - if anything???

[dhicks]

What are other people doing with this?

 

Just looking at this today: We have a bunch of "web-based" teaching resources that are implemented as a set of HTML files with embedded Flash resources. I've set up a small Linux desktop VM to host these files and run Firefox ESR v56 with Flash support, then pointed our web-based remote access gateway at it. Our remote access gateway accepts GSuite OAuth authentication, so as long as the user is logged in with their GSuite account already they can click on a link and have the resource appear in a browser tab. It's actually running in a browser on a remote desktop, of course, so I'm not sure what performance is going to be like - just getting this set up and tested now.

[paulkerton]

Surprise Chrome wont support flash by end of this year.. I know IE is going soon and MS is replacing it Chrome

 

Adobe won't be supporting it going forward, so neither will Google. Google's implementation is essentially a Chrome built-in variation of the existing Flash plugin.

The one thing you can not knock Apple and iPad for, is that it's arrival heralded the end of the Flash plugin and the move to HTML5.

Glad I am not still in my last school - most of the software used flash (and was labelled as compatible with Windows 95 upwards!!) and most of the websites they used for teaching also used flash

wonder what their new support group have done - if anything???

Hopefully told them the truth and explained that one school isn't going to be able to make the industry change it's mind. It's time to find alternatives.

The worst thing they could do is attempt to continue supporting them using old and outdated resources.

 

Of course, if its an application built and compiled in Flash but made executable, they'll still work. For now.

[paulkerton]

Just looking at this today: We have a bunch of "web-based" teaching resources that are implemented as a set of HTML files with embedded Flash resources. I've set up a small Linux desktop VM to host these files and run Firefox ESR v56 with Flash support, then pointed our web-based remote access gateway at it. Our remote access gateway accepts GSuite OAuth authentication, so as long as the user is logged in with their GSuite account already they can click on a link and have the resource appear in a browser tab. It's actually running in a browser on a remote desktop, of course, so I'm not sure what performance is going to be like - just getting this set up and tested now.

That seems like you've created yourself a massive obligation of support and the costs around that, to try and create a delay of the inevitable. Wouldn't it just have been easier and ultimately most cost effective just to tell them "Sorry, this is the way the industry is moving. You'll have to create or purchase new resources."

 

It's not like it's sudden either, this was announced in July 2017, and everyone was given 3 and a half years to seek out alternatives and developers to start moving away from it.

 

https://theblog.adobe.com/adobe-flash-update/

[LeMarchand]

It's not like it's sudden either, this was announced in July 2017, and everyone was given 3 and a half years to seek out alternatives and developers to start moving away from it.

 

https://theblog.adobe.com/adobe-flash-update/

 

Unfortunately, unless this got advertised to teachers by someone they might listen to, they won't know about it. Even if they did, "My whole planning needs ". I've had a school buy Granny's Garden (c.1983) a few years ago.

[paulkerton]

Unfortunately, unless this got advertised to teachers by someone they might listen to, they won't know about it. Even if they did, "My whole planning needs ". I've had a school buy Granny's Garden (c.1983) a few years ago.

 

This is part of the school network management and support job though, isn't it? When it was announced by Adobe at my previous job I informed all of the staff that this was coming, and not to buy resources and solutions that relied on Flash moving forward, and to plan to replace those resources by the start of the 2020-2021 school year. If they decided not to listen, then at least I had the "I told you this was happening" to fall back on, and as much as they might complain the dropped ball was firmly in their court.

 

At least Granny's Garden does work with Windows 10, to be fair! No one should be afraid to say "No, it's not possible/reasonable/viable." Though sadly, you're right about that "I need..." culture that can be pervasive in schools. Hopefully a good Head/CEO will listen to the expertise they have and realise that a teacher is being unreasonable... Hopefully!

[mavhc]

Even professional paid teacher resources are horribly out of date, and if they're not paying a subscription for updates even more so. The first link on the first resource I found on OCR's computing resource page was broken.

 

People are still teaching visual basic.

[paulkerton]

People are still teaching visual basic.

 

I just don't have the words. That's horrifying.

I guess I've been very lucky to work in organisations that keep pushing forward.

 

That's just failing the kids. :Cry:

[LeMarchand]

This is part of the school network management and support job though, isn't it? When it was announced by Adobe at my previous job I informed all of the staff that this was coming, and not to buy resources and solutions that relied on Flash moving forward, and to plan to replace those resources by the start of the 2020-2021 school year. If they decided not to listen, then at least I had the "I told you this was happening" to fall back on, and as much as they might complain the dropped ball was firmly in their court.

 

I did tell them, but I'm a sole tech who covers 3 primary/junior schools. Unless I can get the heads to understand something and (more to the point) pass on its urgency forcefully, I might as well not bother.

[localzuk]

This is part of the school network management and support job though, isn't it? When it was announced by Adobe at my previous job I informed all of the staff that this was coming, and not to buy resources and solutions that relied on Flash moving forward, and to plan to replace those resources by the start of the 2020-2021 school year. If they decided not to listen, then at least I had the "I told you this was happening" to fall back on, and as much as they might complain the dropped ball was firmly in their court.

 

At least Granny's Garden does work with Windows 10, to be fair! No one should be afraid to say "No, it's not possible/reasonable/viable." Though sadly, you're right about that "I need..." culture that can be pervasive in schools. Hopefully a good Head/CEO will listen to the expertise they have and realise that a teacher is being unreasonable... Hopefully!

 

Whilst the theory of what you suggest may seem sound, remember that many teachers simply won't know what Flash is and whether the tools they use utilise it. We are not here to simply tell staff that a tool they don't really know anything about is stopping working. We are here to tell them it is stopping working, then assist them in identifying things that use it and advise that those particular things will need replacing.

[paulkerton]

We are here to tell them it is stopping working, then assist them in identifying things that use it and advise that those particular things will need replacing.

 

Oh, I do agree with that.

[KK20]

We teach small basic (pretty much VB), it is a very good starting language - this and basic HTML is the staple of first and second year. Python is next after small basic for advanced second year and rest of third. Option block is computer science with python and c#. Dont forget that .VBS scripting is VB at its heart and substantially faster (and lower boot cost) than .ps1 scripts.

 

Flash is used on a number of resources but we only use chrome flash with all the click to allow set as default - this is to show teachers it is on its way out, hence a hassle. Java is not used by any teacher resource, we have some old iDRAC that use JAVA that is about it. I think netgear has an app that uses flash too.

Edited February 28, 2020 by KK20

[mavhc]

Yeah, I don't change the defaults, they should find it more and more annoying to use flash over time, only way they'll notice.

 

I just go from Scratch to Python, maybe Javascript later as that's what everyone's using now. Not sure I've ever done anything time critical in VBS or PS

[Areku]

when we first found out flash and java where being killed, we took it off our base images, (what 2 years ago?), and had it as a "requested" feature.

when teacher requested the feature we informed they why it was removed, and told them the time was coming, and they would need to look for alternatives.

skip on today, when we very rarely get called to install either, and when we do its for those exam marking software teachers use once a year.

 

(we even by default block chromes bulitin flash, but that more to stop the kids spending all lesson playing Mario games, but because of the above it had limited effect on actual learning)

[mikeprice]

As far as old stuff is concerned - I was told by an examiner for an exam board - not all that long ago - that he knew of schools that were still using QB45 for Computing projects

 

just out of curiosity I wondered if it would still work - I could only find a download on a dodgy website - so I decided that allowing it on the school network was probably best left alone

[mavhc]

sounds like some teachers can't be bothered to learn any new languages. If you're teaching children for things they're going to be using in probably 5 years time you need to be very up to date

[sparkeh]

sounds like some teachers can't be bothered to learn any new languages. If you're teaching children for things they're going to be using in probably 5 years time you need to be very up to date

 

Teaching programming isn’t about jumping in the latest language du jour.

 

You need to give learners a sound foundation in the fundamentals of programming and some languages are better suited to start learning with. There’s nothing wrong with using an older language to give them that solid base.

 

Languages fall in and out of fashion but the basics stay the same.

[mukz]

No Java or flash here unless absolutely required.

Staff are forced to move to newer alternatives - only when there are no other options for them do i install it for them and tell then that i will check how often they are actually using the software they need it for.

[mikeprice]

sounds like some teachers can't be bothered to learn any new languages. If you're teaching children for things they're going to be using in probably 5 years time you need to be very up to date

 

When I was training to be an ICT teacher our tutor said we would get jealous of other teachers because

1) we would never sit down in a lesson - probably only PE teachers move around more

but mostly

2) all our teaching resources would have to change every year - I have known teachers of other subjects who have been using the same resources for decades

When the main teaching block burnt down at one school teachers were complaining about the loss of resources that they had been using for many many years

The IT people changed theirs every year or so

 

even when computers came into the classroom many people just transferred OHP slides to Powerpoint slides - and the OHP slides were probably taken directly from a text book before that

 

Hence in my opinion IT teachers should be prepared to change constantly - in reality SMT should support this and allow extra time to do so

AT one school the Modern Language dept decided to swap from teaching French to teaching Spanish - in spite of only the HOD having ever done Spanish before

SMT gave them 5 days off (in school) to get themselves up to speed with the language - fitted in after exams so Year 11 were off and Year 10 were on work experience

 

I wonder how many ICT teachers were given a couple of days off to learn Python (other languages are available - lets not get into arguments about which is best!)??

[paulkerton]

Teaching programming isn’t about jumping in the latest language du jour.

You need to give learners a sound foundation in the fundamentals of programming and some languages are better suited to start learning with. There’s nothing wrong with using an older language to give them that solid base.

Languages fall in and out of fashion but the basics stay the same.

Correct. But if we're looking at quick to learn and easy to master AND relevant to the skills required in the modern workplace currently, then there is very little reason to not use Python. Or other more modern languages (Python's advantage is it's cost, or lack of)

Edited March 2, 2020 by paulkerton

[jthompson]

One of the most commonly used Flash-based resources here has always been MyMaths, but I can see now that they've already completed their migration away from Flash (in November 2019). https://www.mymaths.co.uk/news/2019/11/22/100-percent-of-mymaths-content-across-key-stages-1-5-now-tablet-ready.html.

[paulkerton]

One of the most commonly used Flash-based resources here has always been MyMaths, but I can see now that they've already completed their migration away from Flash (in November 2019). https://www.mymaths.co.uk/news/2019/11/22/100-percent-of-mymaths-content-across-key-stages-1-5-now-tablet-ready.html.

Ahh MyMaths. Caused a stand-up row between me and my old Head after she ignored my warning regarding buying MyMaths at it mostly used Flash at the time and the surveys we had taken that showed that the vast majority of our pupils used iPad and Android devices at home. Maths coordinator wanted it, so we were buying it.

Suddenly we had "Homework club" at lunchtimes, designed to get children to use MyMaths on Windows machines, and repeated chaos when there were more children than PCs there, as well as the other IT room based clubs that had to be canned for it. I refused to recommend Puffin Browser because of the potential issues with it essentially being a proxy, and telling parents to download said proxy for their kids.

Then she asked me to front a meeting with parents over the use of MyMaths on devices without Flash.

You can imagine my reaction!

[localzuk]

sounds like some teachers can't be bothered to learn any new languages. If you're teaching children for things they're going to be using in probably 5 years time you need to be very up to date

This is wrong IMO. Computing is a subject designed to teach how to code. Not how to code in a specific language. The subject should be teaching, and emphasising, the basics - data structures, loops, operators, strong vs weak typing, etc... Those are all transferable skills, and will apply in all languages. If the best way of doing that is using something like BASIC, go for it. If its Python or Go, have at it.

 

The reality is, the concepts are what matter, not the specific syntax. A good teacher will be showing multiple languages and how they implement those concepts. Its why computing generally goes up in complexity, from something like Logo to Scratch to Python etc... It shows how those skills transfer - after all, a for loop is a for loop regardless of language.

 

Just so long as you aren't teaching them Javascript, we're all good. Because that would just be sadism.

[paulkerton]

This is wrong IMO. Computing is a subject designed to teach how to code. Not how to code in a specific language. The subject should be teaching, and emphasising, the basics - data structures, loops, operators, strong vs weak typing, etc... Those are all transferable skills, and will apply in all languages. If the best way of doing that is using something like BASIC, go for it. If its Python or Go, have at it.

I would tend to agree, but not for outdated languages that have passed their useful life.

If you're teaching Go, Python, Javascript, Swift, C/C#, Ruby, Objective C, R, Swift. Fine, have at it.

If you're teaching Pascal, Fortran, BASIC, COBOL, VB then perhaps its time to learn a new language or....

[mavhc]

Objective C is dead now, C should be rarely used, and you put Swift in there twice.

 

As many people should learn C as learn Latin.

 

Why do we teach French or German not Sylheti or Uyghur? Because they're popular and useful.

 

Also way easier to learn Python than C, can get on with the concepts instead of it crashing all the time.

 

Javascript should also be taught as that's the most popular language, and HTML/CSS and SQL as they're used by pretty much everybody.

 

No one's making a WinForms app in 2020. If you're not teaching web native stuff why bother?

 

In fact the Pearson 2020 GCSE in CS says use Python 3, for the exam, a 2 hour exam using a Python IDE on a computer.

 

https://qualifications.pearson.com/content/dam/pdf/GCSE/Computer%20Science/2020/specification-and-sample-assessments/GCSE_L1_L2_Computer%20Science_2020_PLS_Issue_1.pdf