Paid vs Open Source software

[localzuk]

I have seen various comments by a few posters recently regarding using Open Source for everything possible, whenever someone has asked for advice about a paid solution (eg. 3CX phone systems), so I thought I'd put a thread up over here to discuss the ideas. Now, those of you who have been around on the site for a while know that I am a big fan of open source software, and have used it a fair amount in my jobs. However, I am also a pragmatist, and a realist when it comes to what will do a job and do it well.

 

So, previously, we ran a FreePBX based phone system on Ubuntu, all put together from scratch (no decent distros doing it all for you back then), including editing config files to sort out gain levels on our analogue lines etc... Worked well for about 8 years. However, we no longer run this system and the reasons are as follows:

 

1. We are now a MAT and the staffing has gone from 2 people for 1 school to 3 people for 6.

2. We need that reliability that comes with a product that is tested by a company before release, and has support backing it up.

3. The time required for doing things like upgrades, introducing new handset types, etc... far exceeds the few hundred quid we pay for 3CX licensing/maintenance.

4. In the time I have been doing this, the documentation around Asterisk and FreePBX seems to be just as shoddy as it was back then - look at the FreePBX roadmap for example. Created in 2014, lists 2.11, 12, 13, 14 ,15, 16 and PHP 7.X. To someone who just wants their phone system to work, this is useless. Not to mention, the darn thing is now on version 19, so the roadmap isn't even current!

5. Big Red Bus planning. With my old system, I wrote an 80 page user manual for it, with every possible thing documented for someone to take over. It was out of date the first time I did a version upgrade. With a paid solution? My employer could contact 3CX and get paid support for the system, as it is a standard install.

 

I've focused on FreePBX vs 3CX there, but the same argument can happen with lots of tools that we all use. Samba vs Active Directory, OpenOffice vs Office, CUPS vs PaperCut/Windows Printers, etc...

 

Each tool has its disadvantages as well as its advantages. Each user has their own constraints - some may have lots of time to set things up, others may be time restricted.

 

So, instead of saying that paying for a service is a waste of funds, we all need to recognise that every use case differs. Your own may be vastly different to others.

 

Personally, we may end up going back to FreePBX still. But that'll be decided on needs, not purely based on it being free to download.

 

EDIT: Apparently, the current version of FreePBX isn't 19, its 14 but the disc image is labelled 1904... So yeah, not at all confusing.

Edited October 16, 2019 by localzuk

[MattGibson]

Completely agree with everything above.

 

For me open source was great when you are one school and you were always onsite to resolve any issues if the system went down.

 

When working for a MAT and you are responsible for multiple schools it’s sensible to look at a paid solution where you can lean on the external support it comes with.

[mikeprice]

At the end of the day reliability is critical for some systems

 

There is no point in saving a few thousand pounds a year on a phone system only to find that you have no phones and it takes all day to fix it

 

equally time equals money.

If you have a lot of wonderful open source free stuff around - but it takes a lot of time to confisgure - and update - and when it goes wrong it takes a long time to fix

 

so if you have several things like this you effectively have to employ an extra person - or your normal stuff has to wait

That cost has to be factored in

 

The good thing about proper paid for software is the support and expertise that you get with it. It is all well and good having Fred sitting in the corner working out how to configure the system - and then when it goes wrong Fred sits there and works out what is wrong and works out a way to fix it

 

The supplier will have people who spend all day every day installing and fixing this system - so will have already worked out the BEST way to do it. Fred, with the best will in the world, will only find A way to do it which works at the moment - he has no way to test it across a variety of organisation like Marie at the suppliers support centre

Also - when it goes wrong - Maria has fixed lots of things like this before - and if she hasn;t she is working with people who have - Fred hasn;t a chance of ever getting that experience and knowledge (even with EduGeek to chip in!)

 

so for critical things - support trumps free

 

for less critical thinsg - like GIMP or Open Office - it may be different. Certainly I can;t see any reason for using Photoshop in IT classes at primary or secondary school (I'm not sure about Art classes ????) - the same would apply to OpenOffice - but in both cases all the exam boards and text books use the paid for things so teacher prefer them

(also - soem teachers won;t use GIMP because of the name - I use it because of the name but then I'm weird!)

[mavhc]

With a larger school/multiple sites you can save more money with open source.

 

Only have to learn something once, then it scales massively.

 

You can either give money to someone else, or improve your own team.

 

For £1000 either spend 50 hours learning something to be used forever, or pay for 1 year's worth of something, and then pay £1000 every year in the future.

 

Also you can buy support for every open source program if you need it. And pay for a hosted version for most things too.

 

The main problem with FreePBX is it's not open source enough of course.

 

Use the money you save to hire more people if you want.

 

Pretty sure this entire website runs on open source software too.

 

In conclusion, be like Microsoft, embrace open source. Github, VSCode, Calculator, Terminal, TypeScript, .net core, powershell, WSL

[mavhc]

At the end of the day reliability is critical for some systems

Which is why the Philippines use Asterisk with 12 million users.

 

There is no point in saving a few thousand pounds a year on a phone system only to find that you have no phones and it takes all day to fix it

 

Why would you have no phones?

 

The good thing about proper paid for software

You can pay for open source software, so not sure what the point is here. "Proper" is hilarious also.

 

The supplier will have people who spend all day every day installing and fixing this system - so will have already worked out the BEST way to do it.

 

Which is why no one bothers to ask here about fixing their problem with Windows, quick call to MS and they're on the case, because you paid for it.

 

What actually happens is they get the cheapest person they can find to fix the problem in a terrible way. All you get for your money is only 5 people who can see the code and debug it instead of 5000.

[Norphy]

Pretty sure this entire website runs on open source software too.

 

 

This website runs on Vbulletin which, admittedly, runs on open source platforms such as PHP, Apache or Nginx and MySQL but is itself a commercial closed source BBS.

 

You can’t run anything on absolutes. If you restrict yourself to open or closed source software, you’re losing out on a lot of excellent software either way.

Edited October 16, 2019 by Norphy

[HPlum78]

I have seen some software vendors be no more than 'Fred' in the education sector and I will sit and develop a solution to solve a perticular problem.

 

The thing is where I am they have got the right balance between front line support and development staff. Individual schools don't have this in my experience. More support staff who are essentially there to keep the lights on, MATs on the other hand should be in a better position and should surly be aiming to get a mix of skills that allow someone to develop/ support bespoke solutions.

 

That's not to say that you should not take payed for solutions nor turn away from a perfectly viable free offering but some of the decisions are down to as already noted staffing, time and skill sets. Also risk is a part of the decision making process when confronted with a like for like free/ payed solution as @localzuk you sort of touch upon in your initial post. One last thing that education institutions have to take into accout when making a decision around software that is essentially going to be used by students is what are they likely going to be put in front of when they move on to FE/ HE or the work place.

[mavhc]

Can't run most things on entirely open source. Your phone has a SIM computer in that can receive instructions from the carrier to alter your phone secretly.

 

Your non RISC V CPU has closed source bytecode updates (encrypted too), or close source GPU firmware. Your wifi chip runs its own OS, so does your SSD/HDD. Although someone did install linux on their harddrive https://spritesmods.com/?art=hddhack

 

It's amusing that LibreOffice is way easier to install on Windows than MSOffice, one MSI, one GPO, done.

 

Of course on Linux everything is a single package manager command away from being installed, even easier.

 

Linux is the most popular OS these days, Ubuntu bug #1 has been closed. And next year every copy of Windows will have a linux kernel. Be like Microsoft, love Linux

[mavhc]

One last thing that education institutions have to take into accout when making a decision around software that is essentially going to be used by students is what are they likely going to be put in front of when they move on to FE/ HE or the work place.

 

An open source web browser.

[HPlum78]

Ah web browsers so last week :-p

[mavhc]

https://xkcd.com/934/ is 8 years old at this point

 

Since this thread was started MS's released 2 more open source projects. https://cloudblogs.microsoft.com/opensource/2019/10/16/announcing-open-application-model/ and https://cloudblogs.microsoft.com/opensource/2019/10/16/announcing-dapr-open-source-project-build-microservice-applications/

Edited October 16, 2019 by mavhc

[DrBeaker]

Yep - you want a service, you've got to pay. Time is money as per an earlier poster. Some people's time is actually worth more than others, some people just THINK their time is actually worth more than others.

Open-source is all and good but it's not fit for everything.

 

I can ring up support and get them on the case, whilst I work on the next problem on the list.

Edited October 16, 2019 by DrBeaker

[jthompson]

The quality of Open Source of Free software varies, just as the quality of proprietary software varies.

 

A lot of the stuff that's just for use within our department (inventory system, monitoring system, etc.) is Open Source and free. We're more forgiving of the weird idiosyncrasies that you might come across than regular users would be, and can get under the bonnet a bit and bend it to our needs in a way that others departments can't be expected to.

 

Also, some things might only be used by a handful of other people (e.g. Audacity, Notepad++, KeePass), so if it wasn't for having a free option, it probably wouldn't be worth deploying them in the first place.

[mavhc]

Yep - you want a service, you've got to pay. Time is money as per an earlier poster. Some people's time is actually worth more than others, some people just THINK their time is actually worth more than others.

Open-source is all and good but it's not fit for everything.

 

I can ring up support and get them on the case, whilst I work on the next problem on the list.

 

https://www.freepbx.org/paid-support/

 

https://ubuntu.com/pricing

 

https://support.microsoft.com/en-gb/help/4457997/microsoft-professional-support-pay-per-incident-faq wait a minute, didn't we already pay for Windows?

 

Every single company hosting your Wordpress blog, paid support.

 

I can hire an extra person because I saved so much money not buying software. Or just pay for support when I actually need it.

 

Of course your closed source support can't work on your systems where the problem occurs, they have to try to reproduce it, or you have to babysit them on the phone using some dodgy remote desktop software while they randomly delete logs and restart services, blame your proxy, and say they'll get back to you. And you can't debug your own problems because you don't have the source code.

 

Open source code is usually better code, because you make sure your house isn't a mess before you invite people in to look at it.

 

Cisco, closed source, apparently has 100s of backdoors they say they didn't even know about. VyOS, a router that runs on Linux, related to EdgeOS, does not.

 

Most Microsoft computers run Linux https://www.zdnet.com/article/microsoft-developer-reveals-linux-is-now-more-used-on-azure-than-windows-server/

 

Should I hire someone who doesn't know anything about Linux?

[bald_pig]

Some situations are better suited to open source solutions, some are better suited to closed source solutions, that's fine.

 

What isn't fine is that some users here feel the need to all but attack others for having the temerity to pay for something that could be achieved with open source solutions.

Holier-than-thou attitudes are the perfect way to discourage someone from your point of view, if you want to provide a counter-argument improve your attitudes...

[BKGarry]

As with a lot of people here, we just do not have the time available to implement open source systems everywhere we would like, we cannot get the cost returns as quickly as what would be needed for extra staff.

 

In the current age where every bit of money spent in school is highly scrutinised (we are NOT an academy) staffing is one of the highest ones. As much as I would like to run my entire network on The Linux for Schools project (formerly Karoshi) it is never going to happen. The cost implications on retraining everyone (Tech, Admin, Support, Teaching, etc) and moving the MIS alone is going to far outweigh what we are paying in some Microsoft Licensing and some other costs.

 

There are different horses for different courses here and not everything that can be run open source should and visa versa, it is down to the individual needs of each establishment and just because we can doesn't mean we should

[DrCheese]

At the end of the day you can save money by going to open source software, but management won't care if that results in downtime. They will be looking at you to get the systems sorted & if the only support you can get is from a free forum you're going to really struggle. "Sorry boss, I've wrote a post online that may/may not be answered" just won't fly

[jthompson]

it is down to the individual needs of each establishment and just because we can doesn't mean we should

 

I'd agree with this. There have been times where I've though "Hmm, I'd like to have a go at that" but then decided that it's perhaps not in the school's best interests. Open Source or Free sometimes means relying on the appetite of one individual to tinker and spend time on getting it up and running and maintained. Whilst I personally might relish that task, systems ought to remain workable by the people appointed to fill our seats in the future.

[DrCheese]

There have been times where I've though "Hmm, I'd like to have a go at that" but then decided that it's perhaps not in the school's best interests.

 

Yup - One of my techies is really good at programming and can quite easily knock up some software that suits a school need in a day or two, but I often hold them back as it's not a good position long term to build a bespoke application that ends up becoming essential - It's too much of a risk to the school if they leave and no one else can support it.

 

I took on quite a few bespoke apps that my old boss had built when he left & I swore we'd only go for supported solutions after the headaches they gave me!

 

If something's essential to the running of the school then I think you always need that backup there.

[DJ-1701]

With a larger school/multiple sites you can save more money with open source.

 

Only have to learn something once, then it scales massively.

 

Until they change the syntax, the way things work, or the language, or add a new 'feature' which causes issues with no warning.

 

I think there is a place for both open source and close source. Love the idea of open source, but the people... sometimes companies... behind them don't always have the big bucks behind them as the close source companies. I would say if you are using open source and the creators have a donation option, it would be a good idea to donate to help the projects going.

[DrCheese]

Until they change the syntax, the way things work, or the language, or add a new 'feature' which causes issues with no warning.

 

To some extent you're not immune from that with supported software - Google being one of the biggest companies who go "Ah well, we've decided to kill of X product with no warning" - Although they are learning to give proper roadmaps and lifecycles of equipment.

[DJ-1701]

To some extent you're not immune from that with supported software - Google being one of the biggest companies who go "Ah well, we've decided to kill of X product with no warning" - Although they are learning to give proper roadmaps and lifecycles of equipment.

 

Well, yeah, not just open source I guess, but mostly Free software suffers more. I try and avoid google... but point well taken.

[DrCheese]

I try and avoid google

You and me both *Hides*

[supportman]

We use Blender, GIMP and Inkscape here with out art department. It works well.

 

Also Microsoft visual Studio Code in computer science and our ticketing system is open source.

[TechMonkey]

One issue in a school is if you save £20k on an open source phone system it isn't as if you can then say "We saved this money so can we use that towards a Technician to administer it?" You will be asked why you choose a system you couldn't administer and you will never see that money.

 

I'd be interested in an independent study showing the costs for a full kitted out school with Open source as much as possible against a Windows kitted school and the cost differential. I'm not sure the cost difference will be as great as we think due to the fact that generally Linux administrators can command a higher salary as there are less of them around. You then have to take in to mind that any Tech will need more training than on a standard vanilla network. I'd also be interested in the difference in cost of support companies for Linux and Windows, as part of me thinks the Linux ones will be slightly higher as they have higher costs due to staff and there will be less companies offering so they can command a higher cost.

 

As ever, it is all well and good having a pet project that you run saving the school money but if that vicious red bus jumps out and gets you or when it comes time for you to move on will the school be stuffed or have to spend money, and wipe out the cost savings you made, to install something that can be more universally managed. All the implications need to be taken into consideration, not just cost, personal opinions or what is easiest. Compromises have to be made, and unfortunately it is often IT that have to make them.

 

I would love to retrain as a Linux specialist, migrate the school and see if I can create a wonderful open source utopia. But I also realise that I can't just drag the school off on a random path because it is something I want to do. Now, it is getting easier as everything is becoming cloud based, the platform doesn't matter as much, but still having a teacher turn up and being given a Linux laptop will have a training implication and we have enough of an issue getting induction planned in, let alone a deep dive training session.