chazzy2501 Posted October 17, 2019 Posted October 17, 2019 I would argue with the title of this thread open source ≠ free and closed source does not mean paid. Open source can indeed be charged for and I can point to many closed sourced programs that are free.
mavhc Posted October 17, 2019 Posted October 17, 2019 Indeed. Not a problem these days at least. Although even back then wouldn't you just put the drives in/clone the drives to the new machine? Do people generally update their Windows Server version, install from scratch manually, or automate installation so installing on a new version of Windows isn't a hassle? Meanwhile in closed source land http://www.edugeek.net/forums/windows-10/210252-windows-10-microsoft-money-alternatives.html
DJ-1701 Posted October 17, 2019 Posted October 17, 2019 Meanwhile in closed source land http://www.edugeek.net/forums/windows-10/210252-windows-10-microsoft-money-alternatives.html Hardly a ringing endorsement of Open Source software either in that thread.
mavhc Posted October 17, 2019 Posted October 17, 2019 Open source software not perfect at reading closed source file format produced by another system, film at 11 1
localzuk Posted October 17, 2019 Author Posted October 17, 2019 Can we all agree that different scenarios lead for different implementations. All our establishments run differently That is my whole point. 1
DrBeaker Posted October 17, 2019 Posted October 17, 2019 Thing is like when Germany decided to get rid of Linux after moving to it to save money https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/07/27/lower_saxony_to_dump_linux/ Google and BBC getting rid of VR in the news just today https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-50080594 Technology can be stopped at any point in time - remember Google+? Just as sometimes with some open-source projects the author(s) or team(s) could stop being interested in the project, or simply die and there's no-one left to support it Or this one https://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/infrastructure/a16010/30-year-old-computer-runs-school-heat/ All examples of projects that had good intentions but ultimately weren't feasible or have essentially been abandoned for one reason or many. Open-source has it's uses, so does commercial software. Each to their own. The technology, equipment and software are all just tools at the end of the day and some tools are better than others e.g. Snap-On. Sometimes you end up using the wrong tool for the wrong job e.g. using a Phillips for a slotted screw
DrCheese Posted October 17, 2019 Posted October 17, 2019 "Sorry boss, I've wrote a post online that may/may not be answered" -- so the whole of edugeek. Why are your systems going offline all the time anyway? They're mostly VMs, just store a snapshot. My systems are not going offline all the time. Simplifying it down to "Just store a snapshot" doesn't help at all when... that's not the problem. The server itself may be running fine but the software itself may have an issue or a bug. When those have occured, I have been able to pick up the phone and get guaranteed support quickly - Or alternatively pinged a quick email over with some logs, got on with other stuff and had someone else research the issue for me/provide a fix. I am not sitting around hunting through billions of unanswered forum threads or terrible out of date documentation. Again, if I have an issue with a piece of mission critical software then I want that support quickly. Additionally, I am not putting the school at risk of having to hunt for admins who just happen to know whatever bespoke system I'd have setup. If I am hit by a bus, then the school can hire someone else and reach out to the commercial company for support. At the end of the day it's no good leaping around saying you've saved the school money if it can not forefill basic tasks. They will simply get rid of you and find someone who can. 1
mavhc Posted October 17, 2019 Posted October 17, 2019 Indeed. I'd replace the amiga with an open source amiga emulator and open source software defined radio. Yay, now you're not relying on specific hardware. Closed source software stops being made/sold/updated, you're screwed. Open source software stops being made/sold/updated, anyone can take over if they want. The opposite of open source software isn't commercial software though. It's closed source software. What's Snap-On? The Germany thing is super weird, some guy gets elected mayor, straight away gets a MS related company to write a report. Report says "actually it's pretty much fine tech wise, although your organisation needs fixing". MS moves its German headquarters to the city. They decide to switch back in 2020.
DrCheese Posted October 17, 2019 Posted October 17, 2019 (edited) "One of my techies is really good at programming and can quite easily knock up some software that suits a school need in a day or two, but I often hold them back as it's not a good position long term to build a bespoke application that ends up becoming essential - It's too much of a risk to the school if they leave and no one else can support it." -- They should have made it open source, then other people can use it, and support it too. No - I don't pay my techies to produce software for other organisations or spend hours upon hours producing/bug fixing something insanely bespoke for the school when a suitable product already exists. Except people have switched to GSuite and Chromebooks and got rid of their Windows servers already. ... Yes, which is a massive product supported by a large company. Edited October 17, 2019 by DrCheese
mavhc Posted October 17, 2019 Posted October 17, 2019 My systems are not going offline all the time. Simplifying it down to "Just store a snapshot" doesn't help at all when... that's not the problem. The server itself may be running fine but the software itself may have an issue or a bug. When those have occured, I have been able to pick up the phone and get guaranteed support quickly - Or alternatively pinged a quick email over with some logs, got on with other stuff and had someone else research the issue for me/provide a fix. And you can pay for support for open source software, no difference there. Additionally, I am not putting the school at risk of having to hunt for admins who just happen to know whatever bespoke system I'd have setup. If I am hit by a bus, then the school can hire someone else and reach out to the commercial company for support. There's more people who've used the open source version of software than the closed source version though. Searches on linkedin for people: Asterisk PBX 19348, 3cx 11925. Don't set up bespoke software, use software everyone uses, like Asterisk. Don't buy a system for logging your pupils progress with photos etc, that's just a cms, use Wordpress. Don't install a closed source paid browser, use Chrome, the open source browser that MS likes more than their own children. If a product doesn't do quite what you want, submit a patch (that you wrote, or paid someone to write) so your changes are part of the system 1000s of people use, don't just hack a closed source program to bend it to your will with scripts or something. Or just quietly wait in line for the supplier of your software to take notice of you and add your feature request. Schools get £100 billion/year, instead of spending the 1% that's IT the way we do, we should hire our own programmers for £1 billion/year to add the features to open source software we want, instead of throwing it at microsoft in return for products aimed at businesses, slightly modified for USA education, and then thrown over the Atlantic fence.
mavhc Posted October 17, 2019 Posted October 17, 2019 No - I don't pay my techies to produce software for other organisations or spend hours upon hours producing/bug fixing something insanely bespoke for the school when a suitable product already exists. ... Yes, which is a massive product supported by a large company. You're missing the point, if it's bespoke then it's not open source, if it's shared with other people it's not bespoke. If lots of people are using it then it's not a problem for only 1 person. Why would you write a bespoke piece of software when something already exists? Just modify that something to be exactly what you want. No one writes a website from scratch anymore, they take some open source product, Wordpress usually, and modify that. I'm always telling people not to write code if there's code they can alter that already exists. The point is switching systems isn't actually that big of a deal. "oh noes, we can't switch to linux and libreoffice, think of the training!", because that's so different from moving to chrome os and gsuite and putting all your servers in the cloud.
Garacesh Posted October 18, 2019 Posted October 18, 2019 No one writes a website from scratch anymore Er. This guy does. And did. 1
DrCheese Posted October 18, 2019 Posted October 18, 2019 "oh noes, we can't switch to linux and libreoffice, think of the training!", because that's so different from moving to chrome os and gsuite and putting all your servers in the cloud. It is tho - Google are a massive company with infrastructure built up to support organisations using their products. Lots of other products integrate into it & you can pay for support. Google now have set roadmaps and lifecycles for support. It's not even in the same league as running a random linux distro and an office product that has already split within the past few years. Don't set up bespoke software, use software everyone uses, like Asterisk. No - As others have stated above Asterisk is not even in the same ballpark for ease of use that paid solutions like 3cx are. I'd rather pay to have the easylife & free us up to focus on other things. Why would you write a bespoke piece of software when something already exists? Just modify that something to be exactly what you want. Yes, that's what we do. But I try to avoid that as management tend to want things modifying to fit their processes exactly which then leaves it a support nightmare when the person who coded all those additions leaves. The old NM had created an access based piece of software that tied into SIMS in totally unsupported ways, but he was able to keep it going. When he left, it was a major headache to support whenever SIMS or the other pieces of software he'd hacked his way into changed.
localzuk Posted October 18, 2019 Author Posted October 18, 2019 Don't set up bespoke software, use software everyone uses, like Asterisk. Don't buy a system for logging your pupils progress with photos etc, that's just a cms, use Wordpress. Don't install a closed source paid browser, use Chrome, the open source browser that MS likes more than their own children. You somewhat contradict yourself in that statement. Wordpress may be open source, but it is NOT a system set up out of the box to handle pupil progress tracking etc... Making it do that would require, dun dun dun, either a commercial add on or bespoke coding. And that is something that I will say happens a lot with open source projects. They often *mostly* do what you want, but not quite. Or you can buy a product developed for the exact thing you need to do (eg. Tapestry or Build-A-Profile or whatever). If a product doesn't do quite what you want, submit a patch (that you wrote, or paid someone to write) so your changes are part of the system 1000s of people use, don't just hack a closed source program to bend it to your will with scripts or something. Or just quietly wait in line for the supplier of your software to take notice of you and add your feature request. I can just imagine the discussion to get approval. "Hi boss, yes, I'd like to use Wordpress to track children's progress instead of the system everyone uses now and costs us a couple of hundred quid a year to license. No, Wordpress doesn't do any of the things the existing system does. We'd need to hire a developer to write plugins to do it for us. Oh, and we're then going to give that away to everyone else. Why are you laughing?" It just isn't a scenario that the vast majority of school management will ever accept. Schools get £100 billion/year, instead of spending the 1% that's IT the way we do, we should hire our own programmers for £1 billion/year to add the features to open source software we want, instead of throwing it at microsoft in return for products aimed at businesses, slightly modified for USA education, and then thrown over the Atlantic fence. Great. Get elected to government and change the way schools funding for IT is managed. You can deal with the lawsuits when Capita sues the DfE for destroying their chance to make money through unfair competition.
LukeRowberry Posted October 18, 2019 Posted October 18, 2019 How about we try to guess the post number when the thread gets locked? Closest gets some rep 2
DJ-1701 Posted October 18, 2019 Posted October 18, 2019 How about we try to guess the post number when the thread gets locked? Closest gets some rep #67.
HPlum78 Posted October 18, 2019 Posted October 18, 2019 Yep was always going to go this way should have called the thread remain or leave.... :-p
StevieM Posted October 18, 2019 Posted October 18, 2019 The point is switching systems isn't actually that big of a deal. "oh noes, we can't switch to linux and libreoffice, think of the training!", because that's so different from moving to chrome os and gsuite and putting all your servers in the cloud. If I was told that our school was moving to Chrome OS and Gsuite, I'd resign before I was sacked. I wouldn't have a clue where to even begin.
jthompson Posted October 18, 2019 Posted October 18, 2019 If I was told that our school was moving to Chrome OS and Gsuite, I'd resign before I was sacked. I wouldn't have a clue where to even begin. EduGeek, surely?! 1
DGardiner Posted October 18, 2019 Posted October 18, 2019 If I was told that our school was moving to Chrome OS and Gsuite, I'd resign before I was sacked. I wouldn't have a clue where to even begin. its honestly obscenely simple. works like mdm, unbox chromebooks, enroll to org and never touch again. all the management is done through google admin, few days exploring and reading the google kb and youre set
TronXP Posted October 18, 2019 Posted October 18, 2019 Believe me, I was so anti-Google, but now I manage 1200 Chromebooks and believe me it is so easy to manage and run.
mavhc Posted October 18, 2019 Posted October 18, 2019 You somewhat contradict yourself in that statement. Wordpress may be open source, but it is NOT a system set up out of the box to handle pupil progress tracking etc... Making it do that would require, dun dun dun, either a commercial add on or bespoke coding. And that is something that I will say happens a lot with open source projects. They often *mostly* do what you want, but not quite. Or you can buy a product developed for the exact thing you need to do (eg. Tapestry or Build-A-Profile or whatever). Weird that the schools I've talked to who bought that kind of software now want me to show them my free system. Pretty easy really, import a hierarchical category list, import a list of pupils as tags, install a plugin to allow search by cat and tag. Install wordpress app on some tablets, done. I've not done any custom coding, just installed some plugins. LDAP of course because no one wants yet another login. All runs on site so no problem with PII being hacked on the internet. I can just imagine the discussion to get approval. "Hi boss, yes, I'd like to use Wordpress to track children's progress instead of the system everyone uses now and costs us a couple of hundred quid a year to license. No, Wordpress doesn't do any of the things the existing system does. We'd need to hire a developer to write plugins to do it for us. Oh, and we're then going to give that away to everyone else. Why are you laughing?" It just isn't a scenario that the vast majority of school management will ever accept. School: What do you think of this system, it's £600/year. -- Me: I'll do it for free -- School: ok. After roll out: School: showed this to other schools who use that other software, they want to switch to our system. Also me: now I know more about wordpress, skillLevel++ (note: that's a terrible variable name, don't use that) Chance of hiring someone who's used WordPress before: 99% Chance of hiring someone who's used that specific educational pupil achievement tracking program before: 1% Great. Get elected to government and change the way schools funding for IT is managed. You can deal with the lawsuits when Capita sues the DfE for destroying their chance to make money through unfair competition. Not unfair, schools just picked a different company to give money to. I'm sure capita can find over 0 people to say their software is good.
mavhc Posted October 18, 2019 Posted October 18, 2019 Yep was always going to go this way should have called the thread remain or leave.... :-p The thread title does point out the specific misconception though. It's not Paid vs Open Source It's Paid vs Free Or Closed Source vs Open Source.
HPlum78 Posted October 18, 2019 Posted October 18, 2019 @mavhc you are indeed correct, I myself have just lumped it all as one but there is a differance I agree. Also when I say in house development I know that there is an associated costs. Also when making decisions for any given solution we may have to make a tactical fix or decision knowing that we are going to be stuck with technical debt. It's not as simple as to say payed v free, closed v open there are way to many things to consider than just those factors. If nothing else this thread has shown just that. And also highlights the many approaches individuals choose some by our own unconscious/ conscious bias and those that are driven by our individual organisations requirements.
jthompson Posted October 18, 2019 Posted October 18, 2019 An important consideration when deciding whether to get paid support for a system (even if it's Open Source) is security. I don't expect I'll be alone in feeling better off having someone else taking on responsibility for keeping a web or email server secure. Yes, I could probably self-host the school website and email systems, or do all the management of them on some remote hosting, with no software cost but am I going to be able to do a solid enough job of keeping it sufficiently secure? We get Gmail at no cost, but I'd happily pay for it because Google will always be able to do a far better job than me at implementing 2FA, spam filtering, DMARC, etc. They'll even be busy implementing important security measures that'll I'll never even have heard of before (e.g. MTA-STS). For example, every time I've tried to determine 'best practice' for securing Apache, PHP and MySQL on Ubuntu server, the advice I've found online has varied and seems to also change with different versions. 'Doing it right' is not a simple case of devoting more time to it. It's more complex than that. Just pay someone else to be across all of that and sleep better. I've never played around with PBX stuff, which I think is what's sparked off this thread, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's a similar picture. Some headaches (but not necessarily all) are worth outsourcing. 1
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