Choosing a car: Diesel v Petrol

[zag]

I don't see any reason to use local charging points, I would just charge at home over night. My commute is only 5 miles a day.

 

If I was going on long journeys, I would use the motorway service station points to refill while having lunch.

 

Its a non issue for the majority who have a house/driveway in my opinion.

[MkII]

but here my issue with some of the placements

car parks in city centre fine makes sense as does hotels, airports and service stations on the motorway i can even understand why they have them at ikea but asda etc dosent make sense to me most people go to their local supermarket shouldnt really require any sort of top up and im going to guess if youre on the m62 say you dont want to divert to a supermarket to charge when you are just passing the area as yo will have naff all to do while you wait

 

Old style Renault Zoe rapid charge variant since 2014 (I think) will top up 99% in 1/2 hour (to give you 100 miles range). My understanding is that new ASDA stores have every parking space cabled ready for a charger. The only charger I use away from home is the ASDA 50 miles away. It's free to charge, we do a half hour shop in the area and stay around in the evening.

[mikeprice]

city centre car parks seem OK - but only if there are enough

 

if you turn up and there is only one charge point then the person currently using it may be off shopping, having a coffee/lunch etc etc

 

so you it could be hours until you get to the charge it

 

in other words - the infrastructure needs to keep up

 

in the meantime - maybe when I retire (which may be soon) we could buy an electric car for local stuff (charged on the driveway - and a camper van for longer journeys

 

or maybe we will just get a boat

[zag]

in the meantime - maybe when I retire (which may be soon) we could buy an electric car for local stuff (charged on the driveway - and a camper van for longer journeys

 

I really, really want an electric camper van. There are a few coming into production soon from VW and Renault that might finally let me live that dream.

[Sephiroth]

I've had a Leaf now for a few months (15 plate 24KW) on finance. I'm paying less on finance that I was on petrol for the 30mi round commute every day. I only get about 80-90mi range, but what I do is to try to get below 50% charge then plug in overnight. That means that I've always got a "full tank" in the morning.

 

I've been from home on the Suffolk/Norfolk border down to visit relatives in the outskirts of London a couple of times now, and just use the charging facilities at the service stations. Stopped once each way about halfway for 30 minutes with a coffee at the station, then on the way again.

 

Driving long distance in an EV is easily doable (DISCLAIMER: I've not planned routes everywhere, so don't know if all areas are so easy) to places that I've looked at going to as long as you plan your routes and can divert to a service station if necessary. My Leaf has a map of charging points nearby, and I keep a paper list of locations and postcodes for any that the car doesn't know about.

 

However, all of that is great if you have the ability to charge at home. If i didn't have a charger at home it certainly wouldn't be viable for me. I agree that the networks need to get more chargers out there, more to alleviate the issue with concurrent charging, as mentioned above, than anything else. I believe that more thought needs to go into how people in tower blocks or victorain terraces will charge their cars when the government enforces their sale, as I know a lot of people that can't even park near their house, but have to park >200m away.

 

In response to OP, I would recommend getting a petrol as they seem to be cheaper to buy and maintain, based on other comments here, though to be honest, I don't think it'll make much difference. I would also recommend that once you have your car, start looking at what charging facilities are available and hound the council for chargers at the roadside. Then you'll have more options when next you need a new car.

Edited October 16, 2017 by Sephiroth

[GuyJD]

in other words - the infrastructure needs to keep up

The infrastructure needs to do more than keep up it needs to stay in front, the moment someone starts to consider buying an EV they start looking at the infrastructure around them.

If your local supermarket already has one or two charge points but they are in use when you see them (even once) then that's as good as having none at all because all the prospective EV buyer is thinking is what if this happens to me.

 

Councils need to make sure there is always one more charge point than is needed else the prospective buyers are going to continue to go for an ICE.

[zag]

Personally I installed some DIY solar panels a few months ago and would charge from them whenever needed. Next car will definitely be a Tesla, Jaguar or Nissan electric.

 

I'm also working on a DIY battery pack now to store that energy from the sun during the day.

[Dos_Box]

There is a very good article on diesel vs petrol and new vs old on this BBC article here: How toxic is your car exhaust? - BBC News

Makes for interesting reading!

[NB9457]

There is a very good article on diesel vs petrol and new vs old on this BBC article here: How toxic is your car exhaust? - BBC News

Makes for interesting reading!

 

Just read that before, was a good read!

[just_david]

There is a very good article on diesel vs petrol and new vs old on this BBC article here: How toxic is your car exhaust? - BBC News

Makes for interesting reading!

 

Interesting.

 

One thing to take from the article is the laws are so far out of place some people seem to think the only way to meet them is to cheat, as the test isn't actually close to real world driving.

 

I wonder If they'll improve the testing - I'm sure I've read something about an improved test being in the works

[sted]

Interesting.

 

One thing to take from the article is the laws are so far out of place some people seem to think the only way to meet them is to cheat, as the test isn't actually close to real world driving.

 

I wonder If they'll improve the testing - I'm sure I've read something about an improved test being in the works

 

the problem is you need a lab test to get a consistent result or simple variables like ambient air temp/pressure/humidity/road temp etc mean you cant compare results. The figures you get dont reflect real world conditions BUT they are a direct comparison with each other which is the best you can hope for or say you test car a on a cold day and iirc the bhp figure will go up compared to car b on a warm day as cold air is more compressible giving you a bit more power (hence intercoolers etc)

[3s-gtech]

It shouldn't necessarily be about being able to compare figures, but about real world actual emissions from vehicles and manufacturers striving to bring these down, properly. That should mean independent tests, and not necessarily in a lab. Yes, ambient temps etc will vary but this shouldn't have too great an impact (and if it did, the manufacturer needs to improve their engine management).

 

It's what places like MIRA exist for.

[sted]

It shouldn't necessarily be about being able to compare figures, but about real world actual emissions from vehicles and manufacturers striving to bring these down, properly. That should mean independent tests, and not necessarily in a lab. Yes, ambient temps etc will vary but this shouldn't have too great an impact (and if it did, the manufacturer needs to improve their engine management).

 

It's what places like MIRA exist for.

 

but if you cant compare a fiesta with an equivalent kia whats the point of the figures at all as even under real world tests your driving style will alter the results. I know on my petrol cars ive usually been able to beat manufacturer mpg figures often by a decent margin but on dervs i never get close (current car i can get approximately what they state iirc combined is 47mpg i can on a run get 45-46 and mines got a tuning package on it)

[just_david]

the problem is you need a lab test to get a consistent result or simple variables like ambient air temp/pressure/humidity/road temp etc mean you cant compare results. The figures you get dont reflect real world conditions BUT they are a direct comparison with each other which is the best you can hope for or say you test car a on a cold day and iirc the bhp figure will go up compared to car b on a warm day as cold air is more compressible giving you a bit more power (hence intercoolers etc)

 

It could still be in a lab, but with a more representative acceleration/deceleration and speed curve.

[3s-gtech]

but if you cant compare a fiesta with an equivalent kia whats the point of the figures at all as even under real world tests your driving style will alter the results

 

You can if you have a set range of comparable figures (so that temps are between x and y, humidity etc). The simple figures aren't the goal at the end of the day - improving vehicle emissions is. The current system of lab testing is easy to cheat or at least tune for - if the regulations called for broader testing conditions done by independent authorities they'd be much harder to skew. Same with MPG figures really. You can't apply a strict testing regimen (as in A-Level Physics where only one parameter can change in an experiment) because it's not even slightly realistic.

Edited October 17, 2017 by 3s-gtech

[Theblacksheep]

Personally I installed some DIY solar panels a few months ago and would charge from them whenever needed. Next car will definitely be a Tesla, Jaguar or Nissan electric.

 

I'm also working on a DIY battery pack now to store that energy from the sun during the day.

 

Interested to see/hear about this, been thinking about home battery solutions lots lately. Until the Tesla Powerwall can charge off peak times and work without a main supply (backfeed safety concern) I wouldnt get the most from it.

[mavhc]

The trick to building your own battery is a) get all the old laptops from school, and b) build it in a shed far away from your house in case it catches fire

[sted]

You can if you have a set range of comparable figures (so that temps are between x and y, humidity etc). The simple figures aren't the goal at the end of the day - improving vehicle emissions is. The current system of lab testing is easy to cheat or at least tune for - if the regulations called for broader testing conditions done by independent authorities they'd be much harder to skew. Same with MPG figures really. You can't apply a strict testing regimen (as in A-Level Physics where only one parameter can change in an experiment) because it's not even slightly realistic.

 

does it need to be realistic though or just relative to each other? you could have lab test results and course test results so one was a direct comparison one was a more real world result and yes you can tune to a test but you can tune to any test though granted its easier to fudge results on a dyno than driving round milbrook but even then you could just draft other cars or have the ecu know its on a test course by its gps location for example (i believe the nissan gtr does that if it detects your at silverstone say it allows the car to run faster than in central london because it knows its a race circuit

Edited October 17, 2017 by sted

[3s-gtech]

does it need to be realistic though or just relative to each other?

 

In theory, relative is enough. Sadly though, it just becomes a competition as to who can cheat the test best. You're right about GPS potentially being used to fudge the results on a test course! That'd be very difficult to overcome, other than with a signal block of some kind.

[sted]

In theory, relative is enough. Sadly though, it just becomes a competition as to who can cheat the test best. You're right about GPS potentially being used to fudge the results on a test course! That'd be very difficult to overcome, other than with a signal block of some kind.

blocked signal=eco mode though if they did that. Which is why you get say mazda who dont appear to of gone the drop a cylinder add a big turbo route they still seem to use bigger na engines than competition i suspect the lab tests go against them but a bigger engine is under less stress at a given work output so in theory should be more efficient and live longer (granted up to a point a 5l v8 is overkill but for sitting at 70 all day id guess a 2l na petrol would output less crud (and be less annoying) than a 1l 3 cylinder turbo petrol on the same run

[3s-gtech]

I do wonder just how hard some of these modern high-pressure turbo, small capcity engines are working. The TwinAir in the Fiat 500 produces lots of power for what it is, has bags of boost, but isn't great on fuel. My huge mk4 Mondeo has a 2 litre diesel and does slightly better MPG (real world). It's also on 230,000 miles, and that's Euro 5. I bet it's a lot cleaner!

[just_david]

I think they really depend on how you drive them. But my uncle had the 1l ecoboost focus and said he got the same mpg as when he had the 1.6, but it was more driveable.

He got no where near the reported figures, and when I was looking at a fiesta earlier in the year even the dealers said the paper figures are unatainable

[zag]

The trick to building your own battery is a) get all the old laptops from school, and b) build it in a shed far away from your house in case it catches fire

 

Fusing each cell should mitigate the fire problem Its the same thing as Tesla do in their cars. If one battery has an issue, its breaks the connection to the others.

[jmak]

I do wonder just how hard some of these modern high-pressure turbo, small capcity engines are working. The TwinAir in the Fiat 500 produces lots of power for what it is, has bags of boost, but isn't great on fuel. My huge mk4 Mondeo has a 2 litre diesel and does slightly better MPG (real world). It's also on 230,000 miles, and that's Euro 5. I bet it's a lot cleaner!

I run a VW group car (one that's comparable size to a Mondeo) with the petrol 1.4l turbo with cylinder deactivation system. When the engine is under low load, it shuts down two of the cylinders. On a flat road at 70mph it runs on two cylinders, suggesting it's not working very hard. On a long motorway run, I get 50ish mpg.

 

I went petrol instead of diesel due to the number of short journeys we do.

 

Even with four bikes on the back, the cylinders shut down quite a lot.

 

I hope it will last us a while....

[LeMarchand]

Well, thanks for the discussion here.

 

Went for a petrol (guzzler) in the end as we'd always wanted this particular model and figured that we might as well get one while we can afford the petrol.

 

Hopefully when it dies (not for a few years, please!) electric will be more viable for me.