Term-time holiday father wins at High Court

[witch]

At primary the damage is probably less.

No, I don't believe it is. There is so much to be taught now,things are rushed through so fast, and teachers are expected to show that a child has made progress in every lesson - which all means that even missing a week can be an issue for both the child and the school. It is this that is wrong - primary school children should not be so pressured that they cannot take a week off.

The "old" system, where a child could take up to two weeks with the agreement of the school, was better.

[CyberNerd]

The problem is getting slapped with a fine as default when you take your kids on holiday regardless of their current attainment or educational requirements. The judge ruled in the parents favor as its clearly unfair when the absence was not evaluated and just processed as the default. If the kids parents were jeremy kyle fodder, with no regard for the system and were yr 11 about to take exams then you would see a different view. This was just a guy who clearly as his kids best interests in mind but sees the school overstepping its loco parentis.

@Glaway I don't agree with you because there has to be a baseline that everybody should follow, and this essentially, is the definition of democracy.

If there is a systemic fault with DfE/Ofsted rules then I am in absolute agreement. The Governments' response is to tighten up the law.

I'll put money on the guy making the claim against the high court is dyed in the wool tory, he has other kids in private schools and takes several holidays per year.

The fact is that Schools/Governing Body's /LA's have to adhere how the law is interpreted . If the law is bad VOTE.

[mikeprice]

I think some of the attitude here if of the "I want therefore I WILL" kind. (I am not specifically commenting on the case in the papers here). Many parents say they cannot afford to take the kids on holiday during school holidays. However this is often not true - they can afford to go on holiday just not to the place that they want to. They could probably afford to go to a decent hotel in Majorca - but they NEED to go to Disney Land/World - for the good of the kids.

 

I have come across people who take their kids on genuinely educational holidays - and they have a good point. However claiming that it is 'good for the kids education' to be exposed to foreign cultures by going to Disney Land or a resort in Turkey (which they never leave) is just rubbish.

 

And I still think the parents need to take responsibility for ENSURING that they find out what the kids have missed and help them catch up - which means spend time and effort themselves doing so and not just expecting that the teachers will do so.

 

end rant

[Andrew_C]

He was factually correct - his child attended school exactly as the law requires "Regularly".* Is the current law correct, or an ass? Moot point.

 

Was this a special case? His entire family were going; very difficult to get a week everyone can do. Yes, I'd accept it was a special case.

 

What would she miss in the last week of term? How many videos? How many word searches? A "special" assembly? Maybe a TIE play?

 

 

* Once a week, every Thursday, is also regularly.

[Duranis]

All those subjects lead into a child being a well rounded person. Music has been shown to increase performance in other subjects also (to the extent that some schools, including ours, now have an entire afternoon dedicated to instrument lessons for every child in our year 5).

100% agree, over the course of their entire education. One lesson though, not a big deal.

 

There are 39 weeks in an academic year, leaving 13 in which to have a holiday. Term time is term time, simple as that. Remembering going to Disney World is not as important as your education.

That is the society we live in. How can we improve social mobility, so the next generation has more money, if those who don't have much take their kids out of school for holidays?

Sometimes you realistically have to accept that people have to live within their means. If that means you can't afford an out of term time trip to America, it sucks, but that's life. Paris is nearby. Drayton Manor is great fun too.

 

You know there are some people that struggle to afford even "local" holidays at peak prices. I know because growing up my family was one of them. We rarely went on holiday (both parents worked full time, my mum worked two jobs) but when we did it was always off peak and a local(ish) campsite. It was always during school times as it was cheaper and the only time it would fit in with both parents being able to take time off at the same time.

 

Did it hurt my education, not in the slightest. Did it create memories that me and my sisters still talk about on occasions 30 years later, yep it sure did. Some of the few memories I have of my old man before he passed was when we were on holiday together and I strongly disagree that anyone has a right to take that away from a family "for the sake of the children".

 

Yes there are some people that could afford to take whatever holiday they want, whenever they want and they probably shouldn't be taking their kids out of school as they have a viable alternative. However there are a large number of people that don't have that option and effectively telling them "You don't deserve a holiday, live within your means and if you take your kids out of school they will grow up to be a useless as you" is pretty unfair.

 

If a kid has poor attainment and attendance already then sure that parent needs to be pushed into prioritizing their child's education. However if the kid has good grades/attendance and takes a week off to spend time with family doing something fun I don't see any harm in that and don't think anyone has a right to tell them they can't. If my parents hadn't taken me out of school to go on holiday with my family I would have missed out on a lot more important stuff than I did from the small amount of school I missed.

[sippo]

Make holidays more affordable in non term time and all this won't be an issue.

 

I looked at a week away in Wales, and it comes back at £700 at the end of July (summer hols). The week before its £300.

 

That is just ridiculous!

[elsiegee40]

Make holidays more affordable in non term time and all this won't be an issue.

 

I looked at a week away in Wales, and it comes back at £700 at the end of July (summer hols). The week before its £300.

 

That is just ridiculous!

 

It will cost a certain amount to run holiday accommodation through the year. These costs don't go away off peak and it is better to have a paying customer in that not at all.

 

The prices charged are balanced to make sure that the accommodation has the highest possible occupation across the year. Reducing the cost over the peak season would mean that off peak prices would have to go up and that risks not getting the booking you need off peak.

[sippo]

That's understandable, spread the cost out over the year. There's no need for a double increase.

 

I can't have time off in term time, so have to resort to school holidays.

[localzuk]

That's understandable, spread the cost out over the year. There's no need for a double increase.

 

I can't have time off in term time, so have to resort to school holidays.

 

Problem is, demand is higher in school holidays than it is out. So, the holiday companies end up with empty rooms, empty planes etc... Even if prices were the same all year round, the majority of people still want to take holidays when its sunny.

 

So, its a simple case of supply and demand. The summer bookings have to cover the cost of the rest of the year. Its just a bonus that you can, if you really want, book outside the summer season, and as such the costs are significantly lower as most of the cost has already been covered during summer.

[Lonix]

I really disagree. Unless the child is being taken out of school a lot, at really bad times (i.e. before or during exams) or for extended periods (more than a week) then I honestly don't see the harm in it. They might have to do a little bit more catch up work when they get back but the experience of going on holiday with the family, building on family bonds, experiencing new places and things is just as important IMO as anything they would have learn in school that week.

 

There are lots of reasons why parents cant just take their kids on holiday during the school holidays (price, their ability to be able to book time off, what time other other siblings might have, etc) and I don't think schools should have the power to dictate what you do with your children (a week off really isn't harming a child).

 

I remember back in the day most schools used to allow you to have up to 2 weeks off. This works for me, the school can know in advance the child wont be there and advise the parents on what they might be missing. As it is now parents will just end up saying their child is sick for the week.

 

I may be slightly cynical but the fine system seems to be purely there to make money. The people that it is supposed to be stopping (the ones who have kids that are constantly not at school) don't care and wont pay it anyway and the only ones it does effect are the people with legitimate reasons for having to take a holiday in term time.

 

And yes I think having the occasional family time away together is a perfectly legitimate reason for a kid to not be in school.

 

I completely agree.

 

Sooner or later I may have my own kids, spending time with them is just as important as an education. I'm not going to be around forever and there is always the risk they won't be either. What's the point in working hard all day every day if you don't get to enjoy life and spend time with your family. Not everyone can afford the extra costs during half terms, not every working parent can get the time off during those periods and generally it's a nightmare. I should be able to afford the extra costs and I will want the best for my children. Is it currently fair? no.

 

There is a difference to taking time out when you feel like it or actually planning and making an effort not to cause educational problems. It's not the Schools fault because they are following a heavy system laid out to them in regards to attendance. The holiday makers have their profit margins to think about otherwise the holidays, hotels, reps and flights wouldn't exist.

 

Something does need to be done that some how works with everyone.

Edited May 16, 2016 by Lonix

[localzuk]

There's always going to be a price difference between high season and off season, regardless of school holidays. The only way I can think of the difference being reduced a bit is for schools to stop having their holidays all at the same time. Spread them out. Eliminate the 5-6 week summer for one and move it all around. That way there's fewer people all jumping on a plane on July 21st.

 

Problem is doing so would increase transport costs for councils as they're obliged to cover the transport for schools.

[LeMarchand]

For some people it is the choice between taking them on holiday during term time or not taking them at all. Is it fair to say a family can't go on holiday because they don't have a lot of money?

 

Yes, it's eminently fair. It's also fair to say that because they don't have a lot of money they should have a complete Sky package/4k TV/swimming pool in the garden/Ferrari etc etc. A holiday is a nice treat, not a human right.

 

One of the reasons I've never had kids is because I worked out how expensive it would be pretty early.

 

As for the cost, do people really think things would be cheaper across the board if there weren't set school holidays? I'm pretty sure they'd start to creep up to the higher rate all year.

[Lonix]

Yes, it's eminently fair. It's also fair to say that because they don't have a lot of money they should have a complete Sky package/4k TV/swimming pool in the garden/Ferrari etc etc. A holiday is a nice treat, not a human right.

 

Is some one using the term human right?

 

Although if we talk human rights, shouldn't it be my human right to dictate and not Schools if my child is to have 1 day off or 5 regardless of reasons?

 

Don't get me wrong education to my kids would be very important and I would certainly want them to have a better start in life than I have. Problem is every parent who takes a child out for just 1 day albeit for funeral to the kids own siblings is being treated like the ones who don't care about their kids attendance (as mentioned below by a certain Toby).

 

 

I actually completely agree a holiday is a nice thing not a right, but what would you class as family time? is parenting to that child and making decisions for that child a human right? If a parent has to take full responsibility for that child till they become an adult, surely it should be that parents responsibility to decide to take time off and catch up on any work?

 

As some one that grew up with parents that didn't care about family time, holidays or my attendance. I would love for my kids to not only have access to a good quality education but also allow us to travel the world and spend time together. As I said before, what is the point of living if you just worry about education > full time work. Again what should happen is a bit of flexibility if not with holiday companies then with education.

 

Otherwise we will not get anywhere....

 

With the amount of data Schools have now surely it should take 30 seconds to see if little Sam has below 95% attendance as a result of serious illness or not? Authorise or not?

[Zer0]

I worked one job, private sector, where I couldn't take time off work during school holidays (especially the summer holiday) as these were the busiest times for them as they dealt with a lot of education sectors who wanted the work done in these times. I also worked long hours almost every week. Now if I had kids, how would I be able to take them on holiday? I only see a few options.

 

1) Book so far in advance to *possibly* get the time off in holidays but pay much more and possibly financially struggle for a few months.

2) Take them out in term time, save money, give them some memories, have a good time

3) Not ever take them on holiday for as long as I was with that company. Not create memories for them or see the world. Possibly have them bullied at school because kids will be kids.

4) Have their mum/grandparents take them but make them miss out on the father figure I want to give my future kids.

 

If the pupil has regular attendance and isn't at risk of failing exams, a week out isn't going to do much harm.

 

And also, why is no one mentioning that it's different for teachers to decide to take the day off? You know, like when they strike and schools end up closing for the day. Yeah, I know. That doesn't happen all the time. But if the student has a high attendance then them being out of school doesn't happen all the time.

 

Schools should look at it student by student. Not send out automatic fines. If a pupil is off all the time, sure, take it further. But if it's once in a blue moon then they should be able to have it.

 

EDIT. In fact, like the private job, even in this job it would be hard for me to get time off during the school holidays, even though I work in one, as I'm the only IT person in during these times.

Edited May 16, 2016 by Zer0

[abillybob]

A holiday is a nice treat, not a human right.

 

Nobody said it was. I don't really understand as to why you think that's an argument as the whole debate is based around the law nothing to do with human rights?

 

I'm a bit in the middle. I understand the importance an education is to a child but I also understand the importance of being with your family and having nice times together. Opinions can be expressed about this kind of subject but nothing will change as a result of it... This is all wasted breath. The law is the law and if you live in a country you have to abide by that law, like it or not otherwise there is consequences. If you don't like it please by all means protest but IMO don't break the law and then protest your case after which is what I feel he's done.

 

This isn't a normal case. The father has obviously sold his story and got the media involved bringing a lot of publicity to his case - the courts as a result may have been swayed more by this. The school on the other hand is just abiding by the law. Hmmm... As I say there's for's and against but I know how I feel about it all. If the law told me not to take my children away in term time otherwise I'd get a fine then I wouldn't. If I didn't agree then I'd argue the case or try to do something about it before taking them which, again, he didn't do.

[LeMarchand]

Is some one using the term human right?

 

Nobody said it was. I don't really understand as to why you think that's an argument as the whole debate is based around the law nothing to do with human rights?

 

Nobody has said the words, but you'd think that's what they're thinking given how much import they place on a holiday. If it's not nigh on a human right, why such a fuss?

 

What about those people who can't afford a holiday of any sort at any time? Maybe we should pay more taxes to allow them to enjoy what the rest of the population do?

[Andrew_C]

The law is the law and if you live in a country you have to abide by that law,

And he has. "The child must attend school regularly". End of, that is the law.

 

What the father argued, was that his child DID attend "regularly" and taking a week off at the end of therm DID NOT change that. The High Court agreed. No case to answer, end of.

[nicholab]

Also would help if employers were understanding to parents about going on holiday during school holidays.

[simonw]

Under the old system, where parents had to request leave during term-time, is IMO the better way to handle things.

My experience:-

Several years ago, when my two were at primary, we wrote requesting term-time leave in order to go to the US. My brother in law lives in Pittsburgh, running his own successful business, married with three children, one of which is severely disabled, so much so that, at the time, his life-expectancy was only months. The cousins had never met and as things for the family could get worse at any minute, we decided to visit. Our request was sent to the Governors who took their own sweet time to reach a decision. It was a painful wait, but we had decided that whatever the decision we were going and we would take the consequences. At the time I worked for an airline, so got discounted tickets all booked. The school granted the leave on the condition that the children kept a journal of their visit and bring back photo's (evidence I like to call it!) of our legit visit.

 

I think any decision should be looked at on a case by case basis, taking into account the child's performance and attendance. In this instance I knew my kids were doing well at school, but I don't think I would take them out for a 'normal' holiday.

[elsiegee40]

Also would help if employers were understanding to parents about going on holiday during school holidays.

 

Again, it's a two way problem. Parents want to go on holiday in the school holidays obviously. The employer does actually need some people in and working during school holidays too.

 

Priority should be given to parents of school age children, I agree, but it's hard to enforce especially as non-parents may have very genuine reasons for taking time off in the school hoidays (married to a member of school staff for example). Smaller businesses in particular may struggle with staffing during holiday periods.

 

Having said that, I used to work for an insurance company and they were forever having projects overrunning into the holiday periods. I got into the habit of booking and paying for my holiday as soon as a deadline was announced, so I was definitely in work for the deadline, but if there was slippage there was no way they could force me to cancel unless they compensated me for the holiday I had paid for.

 

I was asked to cancel my leave on two occasions. Both times I showed them it was paid for and both times they backed down... and both times the project slipped even further and I was fine anyway Others were extremely hacked off!

[nicholab]

I think that SATs, GCSE and A level years should be no go for holidays. Also longer than 2 weeks should not be allowed. I remember people when I was at school in the 80/90's always went on chavy holidays in tearm time.

[sparkeh]

Schools should look at it student by student. Not send out automatic fines.

I can only speak from experience of knowing schools around here but:

1. It is considered on a case by case basis but applying the law to each case
   
2. There are no "automatic fines" sent out by schools as
   
   • schools don't issue fines, its the LAs job to review the case and decide whether to take it forward to to that stage
     
   • there's a Hell of a lot of (human) work that goes into even getting to the fining stage
     

[localzuk]

I can only speak from experience of knowing schools around here but:

1. It is considered on a case by case basis but applying the law to each case
   
2. There are no "automatic fines" sent out by schools as
   
   • schools don't issue fines, its the LAs job to review the case and decide whether to take it forward to to that stage
     
   • there's a Hell of a lot of (human) work that goes into even getting to the fining stage
     

 

It appears to vary by LA. Our LA doesn't jump to fines quickly, there's a lot of work before it gets there, that's for sure. Some LAs seem to get to the fine stage a lot quicker.

 

That's definitely something that needs changing - many people seem to think the choice to fine is the school's.

[elsiegee40]

Discussed in parliament yesterday

Gibb pledges to act over term-time holidays - BBC News

 

They're looking to close the loop-holes!

[JJonas]

Maybe more schools should try this approach

 

Primary school develops inventive approach to help parents afford cheaper holidays