dblight Posted September 30, 2015 Author Posted September 30, 2015 Sorry but that response still seems to be Microsoft trying to dictate how people should run their networks. Put simply - we do not want Microsoft forcing major updates/feature changes upon us every 8 months. This network belongs to the school, not Microsoft, and as such we want to be entirely in charge of when computers get updates. LTSB offers this capability. Imagine the chaos it could cause with tools like SIMS.Net? They only support a version of Windows 6 months after release. We turn up, Microsoft force an update and bam, we end up unable to run SIMS.Net. Or any other of the many weird and wonderful pieces of software schools run that takes far too much effort to get to run in the first place. No thank you. Neither agree or disagree. Just showing the guidance. It's a difficult one at the moment with the unknowns as to the best versions. Luckily for us one of our schools is still 7 enterprise and the other secondary and primary's are 8.1. We won't be changing to 10 anytime soon so hopefully all these questions and uncertainties get sorted by that point.... Here's hoping.
localzuk Posted September 30, 2015 Posted September 30, 2015 MS have already stated that there will be additional APIs in the Education release compared to any other version in he future. LTSB is only for mission critical environments - power stations and hospitals for example! Again, ignoring what Microsoft may have said, do you not see the issue I have with the non-LTSB versions? 8 monthly enforced updates containing major changes that may break existing software?
Valsh Posted September 30, 2015 Posted September 30, 2015 (edited) Forcing updates is never good, I don't even think that's limited to an education setting. With any large network you want to be in control of when and why updates are coming in, there have been so many botched updates in the past - the entire thing just sounds like a massive headache. On the other hand there are some companies that could do with updating their software a bit more regularly and maybe a change like that would force them to keep up to date or be rendered obsolete. Edited September 30, 2015 by Valsh
localzuk Posted October 1, 2015 Posted October 1, 2015 This makes me just think LTSB is the only route to go - Weird garbled Windows 7 update baffles world – now Microsoft reveals the truth • The Register
Michael Posted October 1, 2015 Posted October 1, 2015 Interesting discussion - I can see some logic looking at LTSB, but then again, Microsoft have released an Education version which is just Enterprise re-labelled. I suspect there will be Education only features down the line, unique to this version. As for forced updates - if your devices are all domain controlled, then WSUS will allow you to control updates as normal, otherwise why have WSUS at all?
localzuk Posted October 1, 2015 Posted October 1, 2015 Interesting discussion - I can see some logic looking at LTSB, but then again, Microsoft have released an Education version which is just Enterprise re-labelled. I suspect there will be Education only features down the line, unique to this version. As for forced updates - if your devices are all domain controlled, then WSUS will allow you to control updates as normal, otherwise why have WSUS at all? https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/mt598226(v=vs.85).aspx I may have misread this site before. They refer to so many different methods of update now, I am a little unsure as to that now.
Michael Posted October 1, 2015 Posted October 1, 2015 https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/mt598226(v=vs.85).aspx I may have misread this site before. They refer to so many different methods of update now, I am a little unsure as to that now. There's no mention of WSUS in that article, but there is an easy solution to this problem with any domain connected Windows 10 device. 'Windows as a Service', so if Microsoft did (for whatever reason) decide to bypass WSUS, you could always disabled the Windows Update service via Group Policy - problem solved This applies to Pro, Education and Enterprise.
localzuk Posted October 1, 2015 Posted October 1, 2015 There are multiple mentions of WSUS such as: The role of Windows Server Update Services To help address the concerns of IT administrators, Microsoft released Windows Server Update Services in 2005. Windows Server Update Services enables IT administrators to obtain the updates that Windows Update determines are applicable to the devices in their enterprise, perform additional testing and evaluation on the updates, and select the updates they want to install. Windows Server Update Services also provides IT administrators with an all or nothing way to specify when they want an approved update to be installed. Because IT administrators ultimately select and install most updates identified by Windows Update, the role of Windows Server Update Services in many enterprises is to provide IT administrators with the additional time they need to gain confidence in the quality of updates prior to deployment.
snagrat Posted October 1, 2015 Posted October 1, 2015 This makes me just think LTSB is the only route to go - Weird garbled Windows 7 update baffles world – now Microsoft reveals the truth • The Register Understandable but Windows 10 updates will be tested more throughly via first release customers etc. If your not first release then by the time you have the update any issues should have been ironed out.
FN-GM Posted October 1, 2015 Posted October 1, 2015 Understandable but Windows 10 updates will be tested more throughly via first release customers etc. If your not first release then by the time you have the update any issues should have been ironed out. Whilst you have a point there is a risk of other applications not being compatible. I agree with LocalZuk LTSB is the way to go so the updates can be controlled.
Peter56 Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 Enterprise LTSB will be what we go for. Its not got all that fancy stuff installed as default. Its one of the cleanest installs I've seen of a base Windows OS in fact. Can you then install the fancy bits that you want? If you can do this is it via Windows update or the store?
Arthur Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 Can you then install the fancy bits that you want? No. Without the Store App you can't reinstall any Windows apps like Edge.
Gibson335 Posted October 12, 2015 Posted October 12, 2015 Is there any categorical evidence to confirm that with 'Education' the feature upgrades can't be managed by WSUS?
localzuk Posted October 12, 2015 Posted October 12, 2015 No. Without the Store App you can't reinstall any Windows apps like Edge. Indeed. However, the apps are only not included in this early release as MS don't consider them "stable" for LTSB use. They will most likely appear in a future release of LTSB, as they will have matured and will be added to the branch.
Peter56 Posted October 12, 2015 Posted October 12, 2015 Is there a list somewhere of what is not included?
sted Posted October 12, 2015 Posted October 12, 2015 No. Without the Store App you can't reinstall any Windows apps like Edge. even with powershell/dism?
Gibson335 Posted October 15, 2015 Posted October 15, 2015 Why does it all have to be so confusing? So, are they saying that whilst on the CBB path you can delay for up to 8 months, but if you don't deploy within that period then you won't get the features that were made available during the previous period, or that you'll get the features but not the security (servicing) updates? That said, it is important to note that Microsoft will not produce servicing updates for a feature upgrade after its corresponding CBB reaches the end of its servicing lifetime. This means that feature upgrade deployments cannot be extended indefinitely and IT administrators should ensure that they deploy newer feature upgrades onto devices before CBBs end.
localzuk Posted October 15, 2015 Posted October 15, 2015 Well, that seems to re-confirm what I was saying - that you get 8 months to update, after which point you are forced to else you don't get updates. LTSB is looking more and more like the best option to me.
Gibson335 Posted October 15, 2015 Posted October 15, 2015 Well, that seems to re-confirm what I was saying - that you get 8 months to update, after which point you are forced to else you don't get updates. LTSB is looking more and more like the best option to me. I still don't really understand the logic of what it states. '...it is important to note that Microsoft will not produce servicing updates for a feature upgrade after its corresponding CBB reaches the end of its servicing lifetime.' seems to suggest that no 'servicing' updates (which I presume are what we know as security and critical updates now) will be provided after any 8 month period. So does that simply mean that the next release will include the same features but with all the service updates included? That doesn't seem likely, given the warning. Or does it mean that each feature release is a separate entity entirely, which can never be deployed beyond the 8 months? That seems equally unlikely, but the more logical assumption.
localzuk Posted October 15, 2015 Posted October 15, 2015 I think CBBs can be considered "versions of Windows" for all intents and purposes. So, after that 8 month period following a feature release (aka. service pack, the creation of a new CBB), that version is no longer supported and won't get updates. So, kinda like with Windows XP. When SP1 came out, the non-service pack version of XP went end of life after a while. When SP2 came out, the SP1 version went end of life. They didn't receive any new updates beyond being told "you have to install the next service pack". 1
Gibson335 Posted October 15, 2015 Posted October 15, 2015 I think CBBs can be considered "versions of Windows" for all intents and purposes. So, after that 8 month period following a feature release (aka. service pack, the creation of a new CBB), that version is no longer supported and won't get updates. So, kinda like with Windows XP. When SP1 came out, the non-service pack version of XP went end of life after a while. When SP2 came out, the SP1 version went end of life. They didn't receive any new updates beyond being told "you have to install the next service pack". So you're stuck with that version unsupported by security updates etc until you deploy the currently available features. OK, that makes sense, except of course who wants to be doing that on an 8 month cycle? Cheers.
localzuk Posted October 15, 2015 Posted October 15, 2015 So you're stuck with that version unsupported by security updates etc until you deploy the currently available features. OK, that makes sense, except of course who wants to be doing that on an 8 month cycle? Cheers. Indeed. Which is why I like the idea of using LTSB - it has a multi-year cycle instead.
Gibson335 Posted October 15, 2015 Posted October 15, 2015 Indeed. Which is why I like the idea of using LTSB - it has a multi-year cycle instead. And LTSB is expected to have feature releases every 2-3 years within that 10 year period, after a further initial LTSB release next summer(ish). I may be wrong, but that sounds about the closest option to what we currently do.
gshaw Posted October 16, 2015 Posted October 16, 2015 @localzuk have you tried domain logins on the LTSB image you were making? Just wondering if the initial profile creation is any quicker given there's no Metro apps installed as they seem to be the time hog from what I've read?
localzuk Posted October 16, 2015 Posted October 16, 2015 Not got that far yet - currently getting all the Windows 10 stuff into SCCM 2012 (and experiencing DISM issues right now). Once I've got it up and running, I will be doing some testing so I'll let you know!
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