Is this right?

[joe90bass]

A teacher this morning came to me 2 hours before her ICT lesson and said "Hi guys, I'm teaching the next lesson on Databases and don't have any idea what to do. Can you sort something out for me?" and promptly left. I ended up helping to teach the whole lesson together with my technician colleague while she sat there looking very perplexed.

That is a lack of planning on the teachers part, and it is most definitely not your job to plan/teach. Also, why is someone teaching IT if they can't actually do it??

[PEO]

erm before you go to war... are you in a union?

[laserblazer]

My previous ICT Head got really pissed because I changed lesson plans. The current one invariably asks my opinion on what he is planning and we will sometimes go through a lesson together before he delivers it to the ICT teachers. He does realise that I am often to busy to get more involved.

[dhicks]

I'm starting to get a little confused about what, exactly, we're arguing about here. Reading back through this thread, it would seem the main thing we disagree on is the original poster's job description, or what exactly what the job description for "network manager" or "ICT technician" or whatever should be. Personally, my job title is "IT network technician" (well, that's what's written on my door, anyway), and I would have no problem with any of the items mentioned in the original post. Opinions seem to differ from person to person / school to school, which, again, is understandable as every person/school is different.

 

[djm968 wrote:]

> I was going to go into a rant about how ICT support staff are under-valued

> and underpaid etc etc

 

Absolutly, no disagreement there. ICT staff should be valued as profesionals, alongside teaching staff, and should be paid and treated accordingly.

 

[Halfmad wrote:]

> I agree with you that setting up computers to look after themselves is

> what I aim for, but the time that's freed up by this is simply used up in

> other areas. I am available to give advice more often but the bulk of it

> goes into developing future plans and improving ICT, attending departmental

> meetings and trying to improve the used of ICT in the school.

 

Difference in size/working of schools, I guess - we just don't have that kind of structure here.

 

[Halfmad wrote:]

> Teachers are there to teach, students are there to learn, you're employed

> to keep the ICT infrastructure working and help people use it. You're not

> there to assist in teaching directly, which is how you seem to view your

> post.

 

Ah, this is just a difference in job descriptions - I used to be a teaching assistant, and my job does involve helping in class if needed.

 

[Halfmad wrote:]

> ICT in business doesn't work like that, you don't see ICT for accountacy

> firms sitting showing the accountants how to fill in forms, planning

> accountants diaries etc.

 

It doesn't matter how businesses work, schools shouldn't be teaching children How To Be An Office Worker. Office work is dull, especially to a school child, and schools should be interesting places.

 

[Lee_K_81 wrote:]

> Surely its up to the teachers to teach and prepare resources for their

> lessons. I will help a teacher if it's something particularly complex

> or a one off, or show them how to acheive something, but actually

> prepare all their resources? No chance.

 

I don't think it's unreasonable for someone to be employed to prepare resources for teaching staff. I'm not suggesting that this be /extra/ work that fitted in around other things, you would need to have time and resources properly allocated to do the work, of course. ICT staff would probably be the most appropriate members of staff to help prepare, say, web-based materials, or Flash content, or maybe video. If they have good subject knowledge on something the teacher is planning to teach then it seems reasonable to me that they help prepare worksheets. This goes for all members of staff - you get an amazing selection of people working in schools, some of whom will have had experiences completly different to that which most pupils might get at home. I've worked with other members of staff who've lived in forign countries, experienced wars, been refugees, done all sorts of interesting things.

 

[dhicks wrote:]

> The whole reason schools are here is to teach people stuff, not to

> provide careers for ICT staff.

 

[Lee_K_81 wrote:]

> Ok so if this isnt a career it's just a job. Why should i invest my

> time and money furthering my skills for just a job? Why should I take

> work home, or wake up remembering something that needs doing for just

> a job? Why should i come in early or stay late when it's just a job?

> IT, even in education is a career. End of. We've worked hard, got our

> quals or experience. Please dont belittle that.

 

Sorry if you got the impression I was saying that your career isn't important, of course it is. I don't think anyone should think of themselves as "a school ICT technician", though. The job description might have disapered in 10 years time, everyone should think of themselves as an "ICT professional" in a wider sense, and be prepared to change and adapt to future developments. We should also be doing our best to make sure that as many of those future developments involve less work to look after machines, make machines simpler in operation, leaving moe time for us to do other things.

 

[Lee_K_81 wrote:]

> Ok, so i'll set up linux, open office and firefox. None of this poor

> quality software that teachers buy, no access by pupils with memory

> sticks, no virus worries as it's linux, it'lll save the school money,

> and everyone will be happy right?

 

I figure the best way to make a computer system for a school these days is to foget about desktop operating systems, just use the web browser. A client machine needs to do nothing other than provide web browsing services and associated plugins. Move all file storage to servers, make all software web-based. Problems solved.

 

[Lee_K_81 wrote:]

> becuase LCD projectors require maintenance and consumables.

> And you wont print anything either because keeping a stock of

> consumables and fitting them requires time

 

Yes, this is the unavoidable maintainance part of the job, the part that's always going to be need to be done (at least until we have robots to do it for us...). Aside from the physical moving stuff around part, though, a computer network shouldn't need much more maintainance. This is especially true of switches - spending £80,000 on switch equipment should get you devices that are stunningly easy to set up and configure compared with £1,000 worth of switch equipment, not the other way around.

 

--

David Hicks

[thegrassisgreener]

no it is not right, I think this goes on everywhere, not lesson planning as such but with other things as well.

 

All I can say is - When are HEADS/TEACHERS gona get it into there heads that Techies/Network Managers are there to provide ICT Support - meaning making sure all IT works and making sure if anything goes wrong they arre there to correct it (techy).

 

We are not teachers/TA's. If we wanted to be teachers/TA's we would have applied to do it -

 

Roll on Edugeek Union lol

[Pete10141748]

@halfmad

 

I think you're right, I need to make it very clear where my responsabilities end in this matter.

 

So far this week, I have prepared and taught a database lesson (which I have been asked to give again tomorrow to another class), preapred worksheets for testing another class using a "database" in Excel (?), and a powerpoint presentation where I was given the information "it about art, the artist Turner" and nothing more.

 

Monday afternoon head of year/dept. meeting, I'm going to make it clear that I'm not here to do the job for them. If they don't like it, well thats just TFB as far as I'm concerned.

 

Pete

[tomscaper]

Why is it often on here you read about teacher, smt and even the heads of schools asking technicians, support staff to do work that is not part of there job, they have no training what so ever in, and just expect you to roll over and do this.

 

Is there a line in our job descriptions that says "we can, will and know how to do anything you ask". There doesnt seem to be a limit of what they ask.

 

My time here has made me really hate teachers and management in schools, as i have been forced in to situations where i have had to do things i have no even knew a thing about. I am not a teacher and never want to be, only once i was pushed into teaching a class, which was a complete mess. Luckily nothing happened but the chance was there.

 

Mabye i am to quiet and often just do things, but that is my nature and i do want to help, i enjoy it. I wouldnt work here if i didnt.

 

@ Pete10141748 - Like alot of people if your not in a union, i would deffinately join up. There was a recent post about a technician been asked to do something, and he got the union involved and the head backed down, you need to show them not to mess with you.

[pallen]

I think it comes down to what people are employed to do. It is obvious that all schools are different as are their needs, but we all do a very similar job - Look after the network.

 

If you have been employed to support the network and staff & pupils in their use of the equipment then I dont believe that you can be expected to prepare lesson plans for thet teachers. If however, you have been employed to create resources and plan lessons on top of running the network and general ICT facilities, then you will have to do it.

 

Realisticly, I doubt anyone is employed to create worksheets, lesson plans, even resources for the teachers to use as an IT Technician. I'm not, so I wouldn't do it, even if I had the time, there are other things I could spend my time on which would be far more beneficial. The teachers have been trained, got the experience and are paid to do this, trying to pass it on to someone else because the staff aren't capable is wrong.

 

Pete - Sorry mate, but you have got to start saying no. For someone to expect you to drop everything and bail them out because they didn't understand the subject they are teaching is wrong. What would have happened if there was an emergency and you were called away to fix it? Would the teacher have taken over or would the lesson have halted? If there are teachers in your school who do not know how to teach their subject it needs to be addressed.

 

 

edit: On a lighter note, if your actually teaching - does that mean you get a pay rise to match the teachers then? :twisted:

[Vegas]

Alternatively; the next time OFSTED visit have a word with the inspector!

[tomscaper]

The problem is that our jobs are very vague such as support staff - that could mean anything, does it mean help them no matter what, or is there a limit to help. It seems teachers know what they can do and cannot do, and regularly tell everyone.

 

I have been here for 2 years, never once seen a contract, job description or even know what it is that i am meant to do. my boss trained me and half explained what i do, but that didnt cover the what i dont do.

 

Sometimes i get complained because i cant help someone as i dont know how to use the software, dont know how to do this that or the other. Do they really expect me to know everything, and have an answer for anything they come up with.

[Butuz]

Haha that made me chuckle into my coffee. The famous teacher workload agreement huh...... "I DO NOT have to plug a computer in to the wall", "I DO NOT have to do any photocopying"..........."I DO NOT have to set up my own classroom displays" what’s going to come next? By the sound of it - it may be "I DO NOT have to prepare teaching resources for my own lessons"!

 

I agree with much that has been said on both sides of the argument. But I will state in my opinion, as a Network Manager, I am categorically not employed to create learning resources / lesson plans for teachers. That's their job, It's what they get paid for. It's actually in their job description! It sure is not in mine!

 

My job is of course to provide technical support during their lessons, to provide ongoing training and CPD to them, and also to advise them on how to use and embed ICT in their lessons. BUT there is a big difference between advising and supporting them - and doing it for them. Once you cross that line, you will find it very hard to come back.

 

As for embedding ICT across the curriculum - that is the job of the ICT Coordinator (or SMT member with ICT responsibility). It's the ICT-co's job to plan the ICT across al subjects, and its the Teacher's job to implement their plans. It is our job to support this - but not DO IT. That’s why ICT-co'

s get paid 40k odd, teachers get paid 30k odd, and i don't!

 

Andrew

[elsiegee40]

Alternatively; the next time OFSTED visit have a word with the inspector!

 

Couldn't agree more. I'm not sure that their inspectors would take a particularly bright view of teachers not doing their own lesson plans.

 

As a member of the school's support staff you shouldn't be expected to know about differentiation, targets, plenaries, etc!

 

There are many ready made lesson plans available on the web, but the individual teacher is expected to taylor plans for their own class needs.

 

I took 3 ICT lessons this morning as the ICT Co-ordinator had to attend an offsite meeting at short notice. However, I taught to her plans and it was a one off. She often discusses her plans with me to make sure that what she wants to do is feasible and so that I can explain the bits she's not sure how to do... I don't have a problem with that. I'd be following this one up with the union.

[GrumbleDook]

Do people mind if I play Devil's Advocate here?

 

Take school A ... they have a a good, working network with a decent number of machines, both in dedicated suites for teaching ICT and additional resources for other subjects.

 

They are now at the point where they actually want to make a real difference in how ICT impacts on lessons. Part of that is changing how teachers plan their lessons to include more ICT based resources, to make use of learning platforms and so on.

 

Yes, this does mean that they have to do a fair chunk of work, but the creation of certain resources (eg videoing science experiments and editing them to make them available for vodcasts) will be done by others ... building flash objectives ... and so on.

 

There are some schools that have decided that they need to employ people specifically to do this, but other schools do not have the chance to do this yet, for a variety or reasons including finances, existing staff capacity, whole school vision and future plans for the school (including BSF).

 

One thing that has been raised before is that members worried about BSF need to look at the opportunities to change your roll within your school so that you have more of an educational focus ... meaning the school wants to not only keep you on but it can give you more chances of it too.

 

For some people this is a good chance, for others it does not fit in with what they want to do with their future career.

 

One key thing is that this is something that cannot just be thrown at you ... it has to be planned and cannot just be done in separation to everything else that is going on with changing how students are learning and how students teach. Aha ... your knowledge of VLEs now jumps to the fore ... arise eLearning Manager.

[webman]

A big issue for people on our side of the fence I think, is that there is no equivalent of TLRs that teachers get paid (almost instantly) when they take on additional responsibilities.

 

If we accept an additional responsibility or role, we have to wait until the next pay review and hope and prey we get what we ask for.

 

This whole "every role has to be directly linked to T&L" thing really gets on my nerves.

[GrumbleDook]

That is what schools are about though ... and we are not a unique industry when it comes to tying all jobs into something to do with the company.

 

There are no standard job descriptions, no standard pay scheme to tie in with it.

 

It is down to you, your school and your school's needs.

[torledo]

Do people mind if I play Devil's Advocate here?

 

Take school A ... they have a a good, working network with a decent number of machines, both in dedicated suites for teaching ICT and additional resources for other subjects.

 

They are now at the point where they actually want to make a real difference in how ICT impacts on lessons. Part of that is changing how teachers plan their lessons to include more ICT based resources, to make use of learning platforms and so on.

 

Yes, this does mean that they have to do a fair chunk of work, but the creation of certain resources (eg videoing science experiments and editing them to make them available for vodcasts) will be done by others ... building flash objectives ... and so on.

 

There are some schools that have decided that they need to employ people specifically to do this, but other schools do not have the chance to do this yet, for a variety or reasons including finances, existing staff capacity, whole school vision and future plans for the school (including BSF).

 

One thing that has been raised before is that members worried about BSF need to look at the opportunities to change your roll within your school so that you have more of an educational focus ... meaning the school wants to not only keep you on but it can give you more chances of it too.

 

For some people this is a good chance, for others it does not fit in with what they want to do with their future career.

 

One key thing is that this is something that cannot just be thrown at you ... it has to be planned and cannot just be done in separation to everything else that is going on with changing how students are learning and how students teach. Aha ... your knowledge of VLEs now jumps to the fore ... arise eLearning Manager.

 

I agree with what you say about adapting of roles. But I think there's a lot of unnecessary concern over job security with BSF. There are an awful lot of rewarding, career enhancing jobs in both the corporate and other areas of the public sector. Following on from the IT spending lull after the dotcom implosion and the Y2K scaremongering, industry and public bodies are now investing in IT in a big way, and they'll need experienced people to fill the skills shortage, particularly in local government where they have been investing heavily in meeting the e-government targets. And ofcourse within LA's they have promoted people with education experience in schools to various roles. I imagine a role such as technology consultant or VLE consultant is a role that many on here could aspire to (if that's what rocks your boat) whether that be for an LA or education service provider, maybe even for the new BSF IT supplier who's won the contract for your school. Comparable roles are everywhere. LA's, universities, service providers....the list is very long.

 

As grumbledook intimates at you may be to adapt your role in the school inline with the changes that are and will be happening or take up a new role that reflects the new direction, but if being an elearning manager or become more involved in the education side isn't for you there are plenty of opportunities out there. Look at redundancy or resignation as an opportunity and you'll likely to land a more, lucrative and career enhancing job outside of the safety of your schools' four walls.

 

Job satisfaction and loyalty are all very well but the bottom line is career progression and competitive salaries are equally as important as enjoying what you do. And the best way to achieve that is to move on every few years.

[Guest richard]

It doesn't matter how businesses work, schools shouldn't be teaching children How To Be An Office Worker. Office work is dull, especially to a school child, and schools should be interesting places.

 

Bull...........

 

A school should be a place where a kid learns to be an Office Worker. If you look at the standard of education today against what is required by Industry then you will see that the kids are not learning the skills they need to me a viable member of the workforce.

[localzuk]

@Richard - schools are not training institutions, they are education institutions. There is a major difference. One teaches skills, the other imparts knowledge.

 

There are many thousands of different jobs around, and training for the office would be completely pointless and inappropriate. What about those who want to become teachers, nurses, doctors, engineers, electricians, plumbers, carpenters etc... Office work is only a small part of the economy.

 

Kids should be learning stuff which makes them a good all round person, stuff that makes them think for themselves, that makes them want to be the best they can. It should teach a wide syllabus so as to do this.

 

If, at a later age they wish to become office workers, that is up to them - that would be post 16 (or post 18) training then. Anything in a school should not be focussed on a single career or type of career.

[webman]

That is what schools are about though ... and we are not a unique industry when it comes to tying all jobs into something to do with the company.

 

I don't agree. Many companies and oragnisations that have nothing to do with IT still rely upon IT systems and pay their IT Support handsomely - because they realise they can't function without it!

[Guest richard]

I am being cynical about this as I have seen the standards in education fall since I started working in schools in 1999.

[russdev]

That is what schools are about though ... and we are not a unique industry when it comes to tying all jobs into something to do with the company.

 

I don't agree. Many companies and oragnisations that have nothing to do with IT still rely upon IT systems and pay their IT Support handsomely - because they realise they can't function without it!

 

But everything that support does has to be about what the key aim of the org is which in schools is t & l. So accountants office would expect system and your working to be based around core its business. As schools our core business is t & l not ict support.

 

To go back to op question my views on us becoming more educationally focused are well documented.

 

This is where i see how things fit.

 

Creating the lesson plan - wrong

Advising on technical elements of a LP - fine.

Advising on new technologies and possible lesson ideas fine (in fact this to me is very important and something we must start doing lot more)

Creating lesson based on new technologies - wrong.

help create resources as in tonys example videoing a lesson - fine

 

Key here is balance if an extra job fine but either be paid for that or need to make sure head understands support will suffer etc. Advising, giving lesson ideas are fine but writing plan of what teacher is to do in lesson is down to teacher but with advice from you.

[pallen]

I think we all generally agree that we should be involved in an advisory role. I do in fact think this is a must as it is us who knows the technology the school has and what it is capable of. But ultimately it is the teacher who does the actual planning of lesson plans.

 

If the school is asking you to start preparing lessons and teach then then is not part of a technical support role and needs to be added to your exisiting contract with the appropriate pay scale adjustment.

[webman]

I understand that Russ

 

But surely maintaining the network and ensuring the IT is running adequately for delivering T&L qualify for being "about the key aim of the organisation"?

[dhicks]

[Richard wrote:]

> A school should be a place where a kid learns to be an Office Worker. If

> you look at the standard of education today against what is required by

> Industry then you will see that the kids are not learning the skills they

> need to me a viable member of the workforce.

 

Indeed they're not, they're being trained instead. Schools should exist to give children a broad education that allows them to adapt to whatever job they wind up doing after school and in the future. On the ICT side of things, we should be teaching children to tinker, fiddle, and figure out how things work.

 

--

David Hicks

[Halfmad]

On the ICT side of things we shouldn't be teaching them anything, the teachers should be!

 

We should prove the staff training and equipment to allow them to do so, nothing more.