WiFi lacking in Schools

[fiza]

Interesting article ;

 

BBC News - School wi-fi 'not fit for 21st Century learning'

 

No talk of the implications of BYOD

[Gibson335]

It's as if wi-fi in and of itself is enough to provide this utopia...ideally this would have explored in equal measure the cost and other implications of the devices used as well. It's more of a prolonged soundbite than an article.

[localzuk]

Wifi is a great addition to a good network. But it has to be attached to a good network in the first place - putting it in without a good network to support it is pointless.

 

I've been to plenty of primary schools where they have no onsite IT provision and their IT is provided on a 'is it cheap? buy it' basis. This means that often, their switch gear is unmanaged, 100Mbit maximum anywhere, even at the server. 10Mbit internet maximum etc...

 

If you slap a decent wireless system in there, and start using devices on it, you're just asking for issues when you hit a bump in the old creaking equipment.

 

So, wireless is a lot more expensive than that, as you'd need to update switches and servers first.

 

Not to mention, you then need staff to use it and innovate with it, which in a lot of cases simply isn't going to happen. Many schools can't afford to buy these mobile devices that everyone is going on about at the moment.

[Gibson335]

Wifi is a great addition to a good network. But it has to be attached to a good network in the first place - putting it in without a good network to support it is pointless.

 

I've been to plenty of primary schools where they have no onsite IT provision and their IT is provided on a 'is it cheap? buy it' basis. This means that often, their switch gear is unmanaged, 100Mbit maximum anywhere, even at the server. 10Mbit internet maximum etc...

 

If you slap a decent wireless system in there, and start using devices on it, you're just asking for issues when you hit a bump in the old creaking equipment.

 

So, wireless is a lot more expensive than that, as you'd need to update switches and servers first.

 

Not to mention, you then need staff to use it and innovate with it, which in a lot of cases simply isn't going to happen. Many schools can't afford to buy these mobile devices that everyone is going on about at the moment.

 

Agreed. A lot of people don't realise that a wi-fi network relies on a cabled network at its core, that you have to consider issues such as power to the APs (so direct power, POE injectors, even POE switches), capacity on existing infrastructure, improving infrastructure, before you even get started on the devices...it's not that most of us wouldn't like it, we just have to make sure the decision makers are aware of the implications.

[CamelMan]

It's as if wi-fi in and of itself is enough to provide this utopia...ideally this would have explored in equal measure the cost and other implications of the devices used as well. It's more of a prolonged soundbite than an article.

 

Wifi + IPads = answer to all educational issues.

 

Apparently......

 

Good point by OP - so you stick £15,000 worth of wireless infrastructure in - then what? What about all the wireless equipment for the students to embrace their "digital learning", BYOD infrastructure and policies.

 

A carefully planned and managed steady introduction of integration of IT into all levels of education as well as training and additional funding to support existing and future developments? Nah cut the funding then tell them all they just need more wireless everywhere.

 

Wifi is great - but IMHO not as vital as people seem to see (as in you don't need it to teach - better equipment and teacher embracing of current tech would be as benificial for students. Some of our teachers think its magic when you show them how to freeze a projector for crying out loud)

[m25man]

"It's expensive, at about £15,000 to connect a primary school with 500 pupils and up to £50,000 for a large comprehensive"

 

Good old Xirrus again fanning the flames, when are these so called experts going to wake up and realise that many schools barely have enough cash to keep the boilers running through winter and fix the leaking classroom roof!

 

Makes me laugh.

[Tallwood_6]

Xirrus and Meru just happen to be commercial partners of the "e-learning foundation" who conducted the survey, need you say more really.

[timbo343]

"It's expensive, at about £15,000 to connect a primary school with 500 pupils and up to £50,000 for a large comprehensive"

 

Good old Xirrus again fanning the flames, when are these so called experts going to wake up and realise that many schools barely have enough cash to keep the boilers running through winter and fix the leaking classroom roof!

 

Makes me laugh.

 

A teacher posted this link to me saying see you're ahead and i kinda bit back with a right rant at the fact its all about money at the end of the day, if you havent got the money it cannot be done.

I dont think they were too impressed, however its the truth.

 

I also noticed the article mentioned xirrus, they quoted £40,000 for whole school, meru £54,000 so we started the ball rolling with ruckus phased in with 2 controllers, 6 APs from @CPLTD about £2250. I also said that its a fad at the moment.

Edited February 20, 2013 by timbo343

[denon101]

I went with a Ruckus system in the end. It was after a lot of research and testing. Also the costs of £15000 seem a lot to me. Our entire setup which is a single controller and 12ap's only cost at most £5-6k. (including dual band ap's) This has provided us with wireless across the site. Including to the bottom of the school field some 200 meters away. It can be done, but must be thought out, planned and funded properly. It was also done in stages a few areas at a time. This helped us finance the project. Edited February 20, 2013 by denon101

[localzuk]

Those prices sound about right for most commercial providers, when you put installation in too. Our self installed Ruckus cost us a lot less than that though. Schools just have to shop wisely.

[john]

Full agreed with @localzuk these reports are biased and a bit of a scaremongering. A good BYOD setup costs a lot of money and time for hardware for infrastructure, training, support and getting it all right.

 

Our place was a bit of want BYOD, I was it needs to be secure X Y and Z have to happen first which took time to sort and even more money, we have done it in the end as part of major refresh of our IT Infrastructure as this was a key feature of it but that wasn't a cheap setup by any stretch of the means but the excellent work we have done with @Net-Ctrl for both Ruckus and Juniper has ensured we achieved our goals and working with Smoothwall on the filtering side has given us an excellent BYOD setup and our Sixth Form are befitting from it.

[truebluesteve]

The report was commissioned by besa who want us to buy their members equipment so the report isn't entirely surprising in its findings. I would ask the following questions -

 

1. The report mentions wireless in classrooms. Do they mean wireless availability in classrooms or an AP in each classroom. I suspect its the latter, and if so its a very disingenuous question because we all know that you don't need it.

 

2. What are they going to use the Wi-Fi for. As someone said earlier, it's seems to be that lots of people think that iPads and Wireless are some sort of panacea for education. Without a teaching and learning strategy to go with all this expensive equipment they become a white elephant.

 

We put our wireless network in 5 years ago and it has served us very well, but its not really up the whole BYOD thing, so we are in the process of looking at upgrading it. However we are in the fortunate position of being able to afford to do this, but many schools aren't.

[psydii]

An AP in every classroom is like flood wiring CAT5e 10 years ago. If you can afford it, do it.... however with careful design and management (unique to each school, and the aspirations and expectations of its staff and students) you can get away with nearly 50% less in many cases, for the moment.

 

Wireless is the future and far far too many schools have really poor wifi. It is shocking. It is often the poor wireless that causes the existing mobile kit to go unused. What is really depressing though is some schools have spent an awful lot on their wireless and it still doesn't meet their day to day needs, let alone their aspirations.

 

£50K to a large secondary is peanuts, if wireless is strategically important then good wifi installation can be funded. That said for £50K I'd expect to see a properly implemented, 802.11x, BYOD and Guest Captive Portal, with secured VLANs and QoS with -60dB in 2.4 and 5Ghz across the site from a minimum of two APs per location, with at least 5 years technical support included.

[staningrimsby]

Why just make do though at a cost of less than £10K for a Ruckus controller and 25 ap's thats enough for one in each classroom and still a couple

to scatter elsewhere its false economy in my opinion not to put one in each classroom at that price.

[psydii]

Because there is more to building a high density wireless network than having a high density of APs

 

and 25 classrooms is a small school... scaling that pricing up to a largish secondary, you are still looking at 35-40K including design and installation, assuming you don't need any additional switch/vlan work done.

[CyberNerd]

Because there is more to building a high density wireless network than having a high density of APs

 

and 25 classrooms is a small school... scaling that pricing up to a largish secondary, you are still looking at 35-40K including design and installation, assuming you don't need any additional switch/vlan work done.

 

Well said.

 

Are there any very large Ruckas installations >100 AP's around? The only schools I've seen it used in I was less than impressed, as it didn't seem to scale that well.

[localzuk]

Well said.

 

Are there any very large Ruckas installations >100 AP's around? The only schools I've seen it used in I was less than impressed, as it didn't seem to scale that well.

 

A 100+ AP system is truly huge. Sundance festival, which has 10's of thousands of users only used 40 APs!

 

Not to mention, the fact that Ruckus now have multiple municipal installations, such as San Jose etc... It can be confirmed to scale well.

[synaesthesia]

50k for a secondary is *not* peanuts and if you can provide Edugeek with the precise details showing how it has an actual, proven effect on the education of the children at the school, I'm all ears. I agree wireless should be more widespread but I do not agree that 50k should be prioritised for Wifi over any number of things that would actually make a proven difference - a proven benefit.

[Gibson335]

Indeed, £50,000 is not peanuts, especially when you're spending more than that every summer just to update, upgrade, maintain existing systems and clients. We have a little shy of 80 classrooms, spread across a dozen or so separate areas, not to mention offices. We have wi-fi in our 6 form, using limited BYOD, plus we have it in another couple of areas. Our controller is expandable, but my main concern would be the infrastructure...which is the very last thing wi-fi people talk about.

[Domino]

Well said.

 

Are there any very large Ruckas installations >100 AP's around? The only schools I've seen it used in I was less than impressed, as it didn't seem to scale that well.

 

We managed to completely cover both of my old schools sites with 40 APs, including the tower block...never had any issues with capacity.

 

And after catching up with a mate who's still there last week, the system is still in use, unchanged from install.

[synaesthesia]

The range of Ruckus is something to behold really. I'd imagine 100 AP's could cover a small town!

[psydii]

If a £50K project is strategically important, then the money can be found. Of course in a grant/budget based organisation you have to cut something else, but a Head who can't plan to find 50K in their budget, is mismanaging.

 

I shoud emphasise that figure should get you the rolls-royce super-delux all singing all dancing, with whole school training and at least a week of on site support for many years. I've built mine for substantially less. In part we funded it through a REDUCTION in the number of school owned desktops (down to 500 from nearly 800) and increasing the primarly lifetime of devices to 5 years.

 

"proven educational impact" is tricky. You need at least 3 years, if not 7 of a new system or process to be running in a school before you see the generally accecpted measure of success (improved grades in terminal examinstations). In every school where I have implemented it, we have been either a new school, or undergoing substantial organisational change, and thus it is not possible for me to truely decouple the impact of WiFi from the wider changes. I will however give two anecdotes that I feel support the case for wifi.

 

1) My previously establishment have gone back to wired desktops in classrooms because the MSP that replaced me couldn't make wireless work (I could) The teachers HATE it. In fact I recently met a teacher from there (who didn't have a clue about my intimate knowlege of the MSP or their school) who as part of their interview at my new place was a) excited to have the flexibility of wireless laptops working, and b) would have walked out of the interview if that MSP was involved with us.

 

2) Our current School Improvement Plan calls for differentiated learning, and improved ICT skills across the board, and improved collection and use of data by staff (amongst many many other things) Full wireless coverage supports this - instead of an under utilised ICT suite per dept, they have trolleys... and now instead of 30 kids in a class in front of a computer each, they are often spread around a given department supporting the 'differentiated' goals, with access to curriculum resources via the MLE or internet in general. Sometimes it is the advanced students on the laptops getting on with extension work, sometimes it is the EAL students for whom the technology enables access to the curriculum. Sometimes the laptops are used as books and the 'work' is done on paper. Sometimes it is the otherway around.

 

What is the impact? The students and staff have access to moder up to date methods of working. This better prepares the students for the world of work (assuming they are to be an 'infomation worker' rather than a 'bin man') and encourages continued development of teachers skills as they embrace the new. Finally by providing a top class working environment we also attract a better more motivated type of employee.

 

The next steps are towards a 1:1 enviroment where electronic is the primary medium. Again what impact on T+L? The intention is that by provided equity of access for all students 24/7 we will see further improvements, and again that we continue to attract the best staff, raise the school profile and thus make it easier to fund raise for future projects.

 

To pick up on 'wired is the last thing that vendors talk about'. I have a Viglen installed Meru network. Viglen made sure that we had a good solid core layer 2 / layer 3 design before they would implement the Wireless. Not all vendors mis-sell

Edited February 22, 2013 by psydii

[CyberNerd]

I say 100+ units because to be able to have true coverage, and assuming 30 students per AP, we would need one per classroom.

We currently have two classrooms per AP (120 classrooms) + about 20 other AP's for other areas = 80AP's.

This gives 100% coverage over the school, but not enough for every classroom to be filled with 30 kids.

 

We paid about 45k which over a 6yr lifespan is 0.0011% of our annual budget.

£50k isn't much for a large school for a major capital investment.

Edited February 22, 2013 by CyberNerd

[CyberNerd]

A 100+ AP system is truly huge. Sundance festival, which has 10's of thousands of users only used 40 APs!

 

But does it have 10's of thousands of users all connected at the same time? I'm talking number of users per AP rather than coverage.

[psydii]

I think you mean 2 classrooms per AP

 

Anyone interested in sharing some performance metrics? I've currently got about 90 laptops in two rooms, one of which does not have an AP in it.