Cut school leaving age to 14

[aerospacemango]

+1 .... in a way.

 

I'm not really sure the Army would want to take the ones who are 'not prepared to aspire both academically or vocationally ', and I'm not sure I'd want them guarding the wall for me, either. I don't know much about military hardware, but I do know it gets more sophisticated as technology advances.

 

Personally, I'd rather have an army of regulars that knows how to work it's equipment, not an army of conscripts that can't read, can hardly write and can't express themselves verbally, either.

 

But hey, what do I know?

 

You also have to understand that it is illegal to send anyone under the age of 18 to war.

 

Therefore, you're taking x amount of 14-18 year olds, which makes the Services look large, but have no actual fighting complement.

 

Also, if you're considering sending these 14-18 year old to college to do apprenticeships, and suchlike, where are the manufacturing jobs for them to take once they complete their course? We don't have the manufacturing base for current school leavers, let alone a whole batch of 14-16 year olds!

 

It would seem that this country is getting madder by the day!

[sonofsanta]

Quite a good post IMO - you look at the level of fluency in English that most Europeans have, then look at our levels of fluency in German/French...

 

The problem with that is that for other European countries, English is the obvious choice for a second language given its large international base. When English is already your first language, the choice of second isn't so obvious - you're damned if you do and damned if you don't. Personally I learnt French at school, and then ended up moving to a German speaking country when I was older.

 

Saying that - most of the Swiss I met out there had a better command of English than the majority of people back home, and my wife (working with Year 7 at another school) says there are at least 3 or 4 kids this year who can't even write their own name, at which point you have to ask some very serious questions about how they ever got through primary school without that being picked up on. Potentially though, at the moment, it was picked up on, but the LEA hs been heavily discouraging statements for the last couple of years due to funding... so these kids are left to rot. Brilliant.

[Guest Guest]

You also have to understand that it is illegal to send anyone under the age of 18 to war.

 

Therefore, you're taking x amount of 14-18 year olds, which makes the Services look large, but have no actual fighting complement.

 

Also, if you're considering sending these 14-18 year old to college to do apprenticeships, and suchlike, where are the manufacturing jobs for them to take once they complete their course? We don't have the manufacturing base for current school leavers, let alone a whole batch of 14-16 year olds!

 

It would seem that this country is getting madder by the day!

 

We don't have enough jobs period. We have relatively few high tech jobs and what we do have are getting fewer. We have no manufacturing as it all went abroad, and any projects (even govt. ones) are sent abroad as it's cheaper [in the short term]. We have few low skill services jobs (ie call centres) as it all went abroad. The housing market is on its ass so we have few construction/trade jobs. Farmers get screwed over by the big supermarkets... The govt. have no interest in renewing our infrastructure - roads, rail, comms, water, electricity...

 

For too long the country has believed that we can rely on the housing market and banks to build and invest our way along. How about we start producing a product again?

Edited October 3, 2011 by Guest

[LeMarchand]

We don't have enough jobs period. We have relatively few high tech jobs and what we do have are getting fewer. We have no manufacturing as it all went abroad. We have few low skill services jobs (ie call centres) as it all went abroad. The housing market is on its ass so we have few construction/trade jobs. Farmers get screwed over by the big supermarkets... The govt. have no interest in renewing our infrastructure - roads, rail, comms, water, electricity...

 

On the other hand: less educated populace = fewer people capable of getting the highly paid jobs = the rich get richer. As the (no longer able to be) working class get more desperate, there's only one place they can get work: in service. The likes of David Scameron and Tory Blair will be able to employ a full complement of proles to perform all those menial tasks and they won't even have to pay them much. It'll be a return to Victorian Values indeed.

[synaesthesia]

Just because you're under 18 doesn't mean you can't join the Army or other forces - plenty you can learn in 4 years without going to war. Respect and discipline will last a lifetime.

[bossman]

Just out of interest.....how many huge corporations have you informed on for not paying their proper share of taxes?

Just asking.

 

If it was brought to my attention as I have stated then I would not hesitate to inform the proper authorities (Whistle-blow) whether it be huge corporations or benefit cheats of which so far no information has been brought to my attention.

 

I was also trying to make the point that all responsible people as par for the course should morally be able to make that judgement and inform the proper authorities should they not.

[bossman]

Sounds like institutionalised bullying to me

 

Pray tell me why you would think that this is bullying, you would probably wrap them in cotton wool and give them everything they need to help them gain a better standing in life like benefits and state handouts at every corner.

 

We as a country cannot sustain this at this level and we cannot create jobs which would not be financially viable, we cannot build our way out of a recession without a firm cornerstone with which to build, our economics is all wrong and this has been proven by throughout the world by this huge downturn in market forces buoyed up by borrowed money.

 

This buy now pay later and the not wanting to learn culture has been growing constantly over the past 20 years, we as parents should be teaching good values but somehow a minority (which is growing exponentially every year) seem to slip through the net.

 

We need to find something for them but they want large pay cheques for doing very little work which seems unfair to those kids who have worked hard through their school life and aspired to reach for better qualifications and positions within society.

 

Yes not everybody can become a doctor or surgeon but there are jobs out there which our kids could fill if they put there minds to it instead of being given a way out every time by people who seem to have all the excuses under the sun as to why these kids don't achieve.

 

If these kids lived in one of the third world countries they would have to work or die (Which is not a culture I would condone but this is a fact).

 

What would you do Witch? easy to call people when they are being honest and having gone through the rigours of having to look after myself from the age of 14 then I would ask again what would you do?

[aerospacemango]

Just because you're under 18 doesn't mean you can't join the Army or other forces - plenty you can learn in 4 years without going to war. Respect and discipline will last a lifetime.

 

I am aware of that!

 

Especially as I joined the R.A.F. at 17! However, my point is that by swelling the Armed Forces by x amount of "youngsters", you have a large number who cannot be placed on a war footing. So, for instance, it may look as if there are, say, 250,000 soldiers, airmen and sailors, the true figure may only be 150,000.

 

Do you take the "youngsters" off their ship/base, in time of war? So, other than giving them discipline, what was the point?

 

I am wholeheartedly in agreement that National Service could/should be brought back to instil some discipline into the youth of today, but going to 14-15y-o is just ridiculous!

[Earthling]

 

We as a country cannot sustain this at this level and we cannot create jobs which would not be financially viable,

 

 

if we can't create jobs, how are we going to pay all these newly-conscripted squaddies? Or are we not going to pay them at all? Or have I missed the bit where you explained that?

 

Don't get me wrong, in this discussion, I'm not having a go at anyone, I've already stated my position.....'You lot can sort this out, I'm retiring soon....abroad'. I'm just asking questions, that's all.

[creese]

I joined up at 15. May 1972 to be exact. It was one of the best things I did. I hated school. I carried on my education and learned a trade before I was 18.

[bossman]

if we can't create jobs, how are we going to pay all these newly-conscripted squaddies? Or are we not going to pay them at all? Or have I missed the bit where you explained that?

 

As has been pointed out in earlier posts, 16 year old's are not allowed to fight so we would have to find work for them, yes better they do something than giving them £30 per week to do nothing.

 

As for creating jobs I didn't mean jobs would not be created just those that were artificially created to try and boost the economy.

 

There are jobs out there and I should know having been made redundant over 6 times in my working life but have never been out of work due to my lifeskills gained by having to do and not having to wait for someone to do it for me.

 

And I hope you do enjoy your retirement as will I when it comes to that time of my life, I wish you well in the country of your choice but pray tell me why you have elected to retire abroad? Not just for the sun?

[localzuk]

Just as I have mentioned in my previous posts, we as a nation have become too soft with our young people and because of this each generation has become more and more needy, we as a country cannot carry on like this and we also cannot make excuses for those that are not willing to co-operate, those students not prepared to aspire both academically or vocationally would be conscripted and they would not have a choice in the matter and if they think they would be able to buck the armed service discipline and refuse to co-operate would not find a compassionate person with whom they could turn to to find them an excuse not to do what is required of them.

 

Not only would they learn discipline but comradeship and communication plus other life skills which quite a lot of our young people lack today. I blame parents for giving them too much and young people becoming ever more reliant on handouts from parents who feel that they are doing the right thing but in actual fact they are slowly denying their offspring the capacity to fend for themselves and so they will not learn from there experiences and therefore will not put anything back in to society.

 

"Spare the rod and spoil the child" an apt saying but I don't mean literally but we as parents must take on some of the responsibility for some of the characteristics of our youth.

 

I admire most of our young people very much and deal with them every day in school but you can see those students who's parents don't give them the start in life they need.

 

Except for one small problem - a child is not just a puppet to be controlled by the state because they have an idea of what they should be doing. Nurturing them and guiding them is the goal, educating them and encouraging them. Forcing them into military service for 2 years is ridiculous and would constitute serious abuse in my mind.

 

Compassion is the very thing children need, not nonsensical shouting from some drill sergeant.

[jdoyle]

I joined up at 15. May 1972 to be exact. It was one of the best things I did. I hated school. I carried on my education and learned a trade before I was 18.

23rd March 1980 aged 17 after a year of 6th form and a bit of college (and countless postings as a RAF brat). Loved school but didn't adapt to 6th Form. Uni was never on the agenda for me.

 

The armed forces are not a holding zone for failed educational experiments and a society that doesn't know what to do with it's young.

[creese]

The armed forces are not a holding zone for failed educational experiments and a society that doesn't know what to do with it's young.

 

It's certainly not a solution to all problems. Plenty of people I knew (not me of course) when out causing problems, getting drunk. I knew a corporal who was a football hooligan when on leave. I could easily get a drink underage, in uniform.

 

It was good for me, but it didn't work for others in my intake.

[LeMarchand]

Compassion is the very thing children need, not nonsensical shouting from some drill sergeant.

 

Although the idea of joining the military is a complete anathema to me personally, I have to say that some kids probably do need to be shouted at. This "you're not making the right choice" nonsense just doesn't work unless the kid cares - and those who do probably don't need the "choice" speech.

[bossman]

if we can't create jobs, how are we going to pay all these newly-conscripted squaddies? Or are we not going to pay them at all? Or have I missed the bit where you explained that?

 

As has been pointed out in earlier posts, 16 year old's are not allowed to fight so we would have to find work for them, yes better they do something than giving them £30 per week to do nothing.

 

As for creating jobs I didn't mean jobs would not be created just those that were artificially created to try and boost the economy.

 

There are jobs out there and I should know having been made redundant over 6 times in my working life but have never been out of work due to my lifeskills gained by having to do and not having to wait for someone to do it for me.

 

And I hope you do enjoy your retirement as will I when it comes to that time of my life, I wish you well in the country of your choice but pray tell me why you have elected to retire abroad? Not just for the sun?

[Earthling]

As has been pointed out in earlier posts, 16 year old's are not allowed to fight so we would have to find work for them, yes better they do something than giving them £30 per week to do nothing.

 

As for creating jobs I didn't mean jobs would not be created just those that were artificially created to try and boost the economy.

 

There are jobs out there and I should know having been made redundant over 6 times in my working life but have never been out of work due to my lifeskills gained by having to do and not having to wait for someone to do it for me.

 

And I hope you do enjoy your retirement as will I when it comes to that time of my life, I wish you well in the country of your choice but pray tell me why you have elected to retire abroad? Not just for the sun?

 

Mostly for exactly that.......the sun.

 

Other factors are that I don't want to spend the last few years of my life worrying whether my cold weather payment has gone into the bank before I switch on the heating or get out from under the duvet......... I no longer regard this country as suitable for anyone of pensionable age, unless they're the people who got us in this mess in the first place........and my own pension will be so meagre, that I'm going to have find a third-world country to make the most of it.

 

But you haven't answered my question....how are we going to pay all these newly conscripted squaddies? Surely they are jobs which are being 'artifically created', whether to help the economy or to take unemployable youngsters off the streets or off whatever allowance they get these days.

 

[localzuk]

Although the idea of joining the military is a complete anathema to me personally, I have to say that some kids probably do need to be shouted at. This "you're not making the right choice" nonsense just doesn't work unless the kid cares - and those who do probably don't need the "choice" speech.

 

Shouting doesn't work. It has been shown time and time again that it doesn't work. It alienates kids more than support. It doesn't mean you have to wrap them in cotton wool, but treating them like prisoners or conscripts is definitely not the right way to do things.

[creese]

I think there is a bit of a misconception about the military. There are occasions where shouting is used but there is also a vast majority of the time when it is not. Some of that shouting is there for a reason, such as moving large bodies of people around safely and efficiently or giving a clear and precise command. The same person who will shout at you could also be the person who will save your life or even be one of the best 'managers' you will ever meet.

 

Eventually shouting becomes just that, meaningless and counter-productive because you stop listening. Until I was 17/18 we only had drill on a Saturday morning, the remainder of the week was like being in a college with a few more rules and a uniform.

 

Being shouted at is not one of my lasting memories. The friends and instructors (military and civilian) did stay with me.

[bossman]

Compassion is the very thing children need, not nonsensical shouting from some drill sergeant.

 

You said it "A child is not a puppet to be controlled" and I would be the first to advocate the "Nurture" practise except that this has to come from parents and adults who give a damn and as so many people have said on here in many posts about young people, some have not been nurtured by their parents because they themselves were never nurtured by their parents and so forth, what I am advocating is a "Nature" type scenario for those young people who do not hold with conventional practise (which is a tiny minority) and get them into something which will allow them to mature with good values.

 

I am not a "Drill Sergeant" but have been on the end of one and this did give me the chance to excel in value's and then mature and gain valuable qualifications which have led me to be gainfully employed throughout my working life in positions were I can use my expertise and experience.

 

I have not complained about the hard times and definitely not sat on my ar**e and lingered waiting for some kind person to give me what I wanted but worked very hard, 18 hour shifts, 7 days per week with no days off except for holidays and sickness(14 sickness working days in 35 years).

 

I too could have been one of the many who left school with nothing as I didn't take to school well but through good hard slog which sometimes seemed endless I made something of my life without taking from others.

[LeMarchand]

Shouting doesn't work. It has been shown time and time again that it doesn't work. It alienates kids more than support. It doesn't mean you have to wrap them in cotton wool, but treating them like prisoners or conscripts is definitely not the right way to do things.

 

But what DOES work? I have seen time and time again that asking Naughty Johnny to "make the right choice" doesn't work either.

[mthomas08]

Let them quit school at 14 and play xbox all day.. brilliant idea!

+1 this.

 

What employers would hire a 14 year old? there isnt many paper rounds these days and I dont see Mcdonalds employing at 14.

[bossman]

But you haven't answered my question....how are we going to pay all these newly conscripted squaddies? Surely they are jobs which are being 'artifically created', whether to help the economy or to take unemployable youngsters off the streets or off whatever allowance they get these days.

 

National service would be just that but with a twist, those students who were destined to be part of the unemployed (Have no prospects of employment or qualifications) would be given up to 2 years National Service just like they do in other countries. They would be part of a new incentive which would give them not only discipline but other good values whilst earning an apprenticeship wage over the 2 years. As part of this National Service they would be taught and worked in a variety of fields around the country doing work which would add to the economy and also help people of all ages. (Cannot be too specific as it would fill the page but you get the picture).

 

This would benefit them as well as the country and if they so desired they could sign up for extended years learning more within the armed forces and earning more. We would not have a shortfall of recruits when losing experienced staff in the forces (Don't like to use the word retirement as I feel all people are useful)

 

As for those young people who could and will fill the normal apprenticeship roles within industry they would be strive to make the grade both in qualifications and experience for they too would come under scrutiny if they failed to meet the requirements and would find themselves being drawn into the National Service scheme.

 

I would say over the years the number of young people who are ending up on our streets doing nothing with their lives but causing pain and suffering to others through their blatant disrespect for others and costing this country more than it would if thes measures were put into place.

 

[LeMarchand]

What employers would hire a 14 year old? there isnt many paper rounds these days and I dont see Mcdonalds employing at 14.

 

It was a while ago, but when I was in retail it was possible to hire 14 year olds, but there were so many restrictions on their hours that it wasn't practical to do so. (Though I guess that the law would change if the idea is taken up - cheap labour pool and all that!)

[Haptic]

I think once you reach 16 you should have the choice of going off to work or carry on at school/college. I enjoyed college because I wanted to be there and was more or less surrounded by people that also wanted to be there and learn, there were a few people who were only there to collect the EMA money each week along with the bonus for being there enough - I really feel sorry for anyone who actually wants to go into further education but ends up being surrounded by these dropouts who really don't want to be there.

 

I completely agree.

 

My dad was a mechanic by trade and left school at 14 to start an apprenticeship. He had reached a very good wage by 18 and he is 60 in a month - Have we gone full circle now then in under 50 years? The problem with his family was that he didn't have a choice and had to go out to work to put money on the table. Considering how some parents are now, would this really be a good idea - no thought for the child just more money on the table and a contribution to the house finances because their parents are on a low wage if any wage at all?

 

 

Chris