This may put you off your Bacon Sandwich.

[mattx]

[Martin]

Merka - the land of the free

 

mb

[witch]

That would be why I am a vegetarian - I believe we are carnivores but until we treat animals better, and kill them more humanely, I won't be eating meat again

[Guest Guest]

Yummy, bacon

 

 

If people saw how most food is breed/grown/prepared/etc they wouldn't eat anything.

[Dos_Box]

Yummy, bacon

 

 

If people saw how most food is breed/grown/prepared/etc they wouldn't eat anything.

 

Including vegetables and fruit.

@Witch. Have you ever seen a starving person kill an animal? Humane dosen't come into it. However the desire to lend them a tissue or wet-wipe afterwards does.

[john]

That would be why I am a vegetarian - I believe we are carnivores but until we treat animals better, and kill them more humanely, I won't be eating meat again

 

We get our sausages from a local farmer and they are free range organic pork ones and very nice. Were not obsessive over it but you can taste and tell the difference than the ones from the local supermarket. But as I am from a farming family I understand how it all works and supply and demand.

[witch]

Including vegetables and fruit.

@Witch. Have you ever seen a starving person kill an animal? Humane dosen't come into it. However the desire to lend them a tissue or wet-wipe afterwards does.

 

If someone is starving and kills an animal - well as I said we are carnivores and that is man against animal - and the man needs the food.

But we are NOT starving and we do not need to eat nearly as much as we do and we certainly need more humane ways of killing.

 

We get our sausages from a local farmer and they are free range organic pork ones and very nice. Were not obsessive over it but you can taste and tell the difference than the ones from the local supermarket. But as I am from a farming family I understand how it all works and supply and demand.

 

There are many places that rear animals with care and consideration and those animals have a good quality of life, which is the way it should be. But abattoirs are still inhumane and awful places where animals lose their lives in pain and terror. If you have ever been to an abattoir you will know that those animals know what is coming.

[Flakes]

im probably going to get flamed for this.

 

I have no problem with it, love my meat.

 

i do believe its a bit one sided the whole vegetarian thing, the amount of damage pesticides do to the enviroment (and no i dont just mean the pesticides themselves i mean the bugs/small animals they kill), being vegetarian is a bit like saying "Its horrible to kill animals, but its fine aslong as there under a certain size".

[sparkeh]

I believe we are carnivores

 

Don't wish to be picky but humans certainly are not carnivores (exclusively or near exclusively meat eaters). Unlike carnivores we need different sources of food to get a balanced diet, not just meat.

[budgester]

Please don't get me started...

[Guest TheLibrarian]

Don't wish to be picky but humans certainly are not carnivores (exclusively or near exclusively meat eaters). Unlike carnivores we need different sources of food to get a balanced diet, not just meat.

 

The word you are looking for in omnivore, as far as killing the animals goes I agree with Witch but not enough to become vegitarian.

Edited December 20, 2010 by TheLibrarian
typo

[sparkeh]

The word you are looking for in omnivore

 

Ah well now you have opened up a can of worms

Are we really omnivores... *clicky*

[mac_shinobi]

If someone is starving and kills an animal - well as I said we are carnivores and that is man against animal - and the man needs the food.

But we are NOT starving and we do not need to eat nearly as much as we do and we certainly need more humane ways of killing.

 

Not saying you are wrong or argueing or anything like that but it's ok for Man kind ( male or female ) to kill animals whether its cows, pigs, chickens etc for food, but as soon as animals kill humans for food or due to territory then we hunt and kill them ie sharks, crocodiles, etc

 

Regardless of whether the animal in question mistakes us for food, a seal or whatever depending on what said person is doing ie surfing etc

 

Just to flip the arguement the other way around

[budgester]

The thing that bugs me with vegetarians is that they fail to see the suffering they also inflict on animals due to crop harvesting, pesticides etc. it's hidden and so no one notices it, whereas a big slab of steak in the super market is obviously a dead animal.

 

I really wouldn't want to be a family of field mice when the combine harvester comes through....

 

Intensive farming, I'm totally against, there really is no need for that sort of cruelty, and thats why we have laws in this country, and methods of marking packaging, but then if you think of somewhere like wales there really isn't that many places where you are gonna be able to grow and harvest crops in an easy manner but I have seen sheep in some of the most inaccesable areas.

 

If you really want to see cramped conditions.... get on a tube in london at rush hour.

 

Personally I think it's matter of gaining balance, i.e. I like salad in my burger :-) with some chips as well.

 

I was vegetarian once in my youth, but then couldn't work out where to stop, do I throw away all my leather boots, should I stop using oil based products, get rid of my car, live in a cave, wearing only a handwoven loin cloth ?

 

I think vegetarianism is pretty much the trendiest form of hypocrisy, lets sort out the injustices and cruelty that is currently being carried out against humans first.

 

In fact sod it. Lets all get together and hug a tree.

[localzuk]

The thing that bugs me with vegetarians is that they fail to see the suffering they also inflict on animals due to crop harvesting, pesticides etc. it's hidden and so no one notices it, whereas a big slab of steak in the super market is obviously a dead animal.

 

Except for the part where many vegetarians do notice that suffering? Why do you think people grow their own stuff, buy organic, become vegan? Not to mention, there are actual biological things involved here - ie. a cow feels pain, insects don't. ie. there is no suffering in killing an insect.

 

I really wouldn't want to be a family of field mice when the combine harvester comes through....

 

So, to feed the meat animals you instead propose that we don't use crops? ie. our meat animals are fed on crops, which are grown intensively and therefore animals die during their production. At least with vegetarianism, the last stage - ie. the cruelty and suffering of the 'meat' animals is eliminated.

 

Intensive farming, I'm totally against, there really is no need for that sort of cruelty, and thats why we have laws in this country, and methods of marking packaging, but then if you think of somewhere like wales there really isn't that many places where you are gonna be able to grow and harvest crops in an easy manner but I have seen sheep in some of the most inaccesable areas.

 

Do you only buy from small local farms then? You are naive if you think you can eat meat in the UK and not support intensive meat farming.

 

If you really want to see cramped conditions.... get on a tube in london at rush hour.

 

Personally I think it's matter of gaining balance, i.e. I like salad in my burger :-) with some chips as well.

 

This just annoys me. Either present proper arguments or don't argue. Childish comments like this are pointless and make you look ridiculous.

 

I was vegetarian once in my youth, but then couldn't work out where to stop, do I throw away all my leather boots, should I stop using oil based products, get rid of my car, live in a cave, wearing only a handwoven loin cloth ?

 

Everyone is able to make their own decisions. Some draw the line at fish, some draw it at eggs, some forgo all animal products that they can. Just because you can't draw the line at a point where it reduces suffering doesn't mean that other vegetarians are somehow deluding themselves or being hypocritical.

 

I think vegetarianism is pretty much the trendiest form of hypocrisy, lets sort out the injustices and cruelty that is currently being carried out against humans first.

 

Yes, as a species we can only possibly deal with one problem at a time. We're completely unable to multi-task. Why don't we simply stop helping foreigners too whilst we're at it? We have enough problems in the UK. Wait, why don't I stop paying taxes too? The money I save will help me out no end.

 

See the problem with your argument?

 

Anyone who is seriously going to argue against vegetarianism should consider some actual background reading first, rather than trotting out the same old, worn, tired arguments that have been refuted a million times over. Try reading 'Animal Liberation' by Peter Singer for a start.

[budgester]

Except for the part where many vegetarians do notice that suffering? Why do you think people grow their own stuff, buy organic, become vegan? Not to mention, there are actual biological things involved here - ie. a cow feels pain, insects don't. ie. there is no suffering in killing an insect.

 

I understand all of this and was not claiming that vegetarians do not notice suffering, but I do claim that the majority of vegetarians do end up getting all preachy about it and claiming superiority because of there choices.

 

I eat meat, and as far as I can do buy from a local organic/free range butcher. Not only because I personally believe that it reduces the unessecary suffering of the animals, it supports my local economy, and it tastes better.

 

As I am sure you are aware our methods of producing crops are far from perfect as well, and it's not only insects that are killed, (which can be tasty as well). Go take a look in a stream, when there is fertilizer wash off, monoculture crops impacting on bio diversity.

 

 

So, to feed the meat animals you instead propose that we don't use crops? ie. our meat animals are fed on crops, which are grown intensively and therefore animals die during their production. At least with vegetarianism, the last stage - ie. the cruelty and suffering of the 'meat' animals is eliminated.

 

Nope, you just proposed that, I said nothing of the sort. Personally I think the main issue is with the quality of life that factory farmed animals are given, and I totally against it, I think the best way that you can change animal welfare, is to conciously buy Free Range Organic Meat. By boycotting it all together you have no impact on the farming industry, by buying and possibly paying extra for responsibly farmed animals you will change the market, and hence the animal welfare.

 

Do you only buy from small local farms then? You are naive if you think you can eat meat in the UK and not support intensive meat farming.

 

No I don't but I try to, and where does all the fruit and veg comes from, shall we talk about food miles in this debate as well.

 

 

This just annoys me. Either present proper arguments or don't argue. Childish comments like this are pointless and make you look ridiculous.

 

Which bit, the fact that I like salad in my burger or that I used to cram into a tube train ? (P.S. That may have been a bit of humour in my first posting, the sort of dark humour you get after having spent a couple of hours spent crammed onto a london tube train)

 

Everyone is able to make their own decisions. Some draw the line at fish, some draw it at eggs, some forgo all animal products that they can. Just because you can't draw the line at a point where it reduces suffering doesn't mean that other vegetarians are somehow deluding themselves or being hypocritical.

 

That was my point exactly, how do you draw a line ? All you are doing is appeasing your own conscience. What level of suffering am you able to put up with and still feel good about yourself. I try and make informed decisions, and affect change.

 

But when someone posts a video about animal suffering, without proposing to do something sensible about it, that's just scare tactics.

 

Yes, as a species we can only possibly deal with one problem at a time. We're completely unable to multi-task. Why don't we simply stop helping foreigners too whilst we're at it? We have enough problems in the UK. Wait, why don't I stop paying taxes too? The money I save will help me out no end.

 

Why not ? Lets call it survival of the fitest, evolution, natural selection, free market, anarchy, stick it to the man.

 

It just seems to mean that vegetarianism is often presented as the solution that will solve all the worlds problems. Global Warming, Poverty, Corruption, Windows Crashing.

 

See the problem with your argument?

 

Anyone who is seriously going to argue against vegetarianism should consider some actual background reading first, rather than trotting out the same old, worn, tired arguments that have been refuted a million times over. Try reading 'Animal Liberation' by Peter Singer for a start.

 

I'm not argueing against vegetarianism, it your choice, but why post a video about american factory farms which the clips said was one company, and the other had made changes, on an education IT forum, whats the agenda ?

 

Why do all vegetarian arguments end up with "Try reading....." or "Try watching...." been there done that, got over the hype, and started using my own brain.

[localzuk]

I understand all of this and was not claiming that vegetarians do not notice suffering, but I do claim that the majority of vegetarians do end up getting all preachy about it and claiming superiority because of there choices.

 

I eat meat, and as far as I can do buy from a local organic/free range butcher. Not only because I personally believe that it reduces the unessecary suffering of the animals, it supports my local economy, and it tastes better.

 

As I am sure you are aware our methods of producing crops are far from perfect as well, and it's not only insects that are killed, (which can be tasty as well). Go take a look in a stream, when there is fertilizer wash off, monoculture crops impacting on bio diversity.

 

Sure there are preachy vegetarians. But there are far more preachy meat eaters. Meat eaters like to preach at vegetarians, it happens all the time.

 

Nope, you just proposed that, I said nothing of the sort. Personally I think the main issue is with the quality of life that factory farmed animals are given, and I totally against it, I think the best way that you can change animal welfare, is to conciously buy Free Range Organic Meat. By boycotting it all together you have no impact on the farming industry, by buying and possibly paying extra for responsibly farmed animals you will change the market, and hence the animal welfare.

 

The point was, you were stating that arable farming kills animals too. To deny that would be silly, but the point is, by not eating meat, you are removing 1 layer of cruelty from your food.

 

And to say that boycotting altogether does nothing is silly. Have you seen the number of vegetarian products available now compared to a decade ago? Why is animal cruelty such an issue now when it wasn't such an issue 10/20 years ago?

 

No I don't but I try to, and where does all the fruit and veg comes from, shall we talk about food miles in this debate as well.

 

Why not? What we eat should be a conscious decision each time.

 

That was my point exactly, how do you draw a line ? All you are doing is appeasing your own conscience. What level of suffering am you able to put up with and still feel good about yourself. I try and make informed decisions, and affect change.

 

It isn't about your own conscience. It is about thinking things through from an intellectual level also. ie. using logic to figure these things out, rather than simply following your emotions.

 

But when someone posts a video about animal suffering, without proposing to do something sensible about it, that's just scare tactics.

 

The sensible thing to do about it is... think about your food.

 

Why not ? Lets call it survival of the fitest, evolution, natural selection, free market, anarchy, stick it to the man.

 

Because we can choose to be humane, to help others and not simply be selfish. We're intelligent enough to do it.

 

It just seems to mean that vegetarianism is often presented as the solution that will solve all the worlds problems. Global Warming, Poverty, Corruption, Windows Crashing.

 

Never seen it presented as an answer to corruption but global warming? poverty? both would be helped by vegetarianism.

 

[qupte]I'm not argueing against vegetarianism

 

Yes you are. You are calling vegetarians hypocrites, making out that everything they do is pointless. Being a vegetarian provides certain advantages both to society and to the individual, yet you are focussing on the negatives.

 

it your choice, but why post a video about american factory farms which the clips said was one company, and the other had made changes, on an education IT forum, whats the agenda ?

 

Why do all vegetarian arguments end up with "Try reading....." or "Try watching...." been there done that, got over the hype, and started using my own brain.

 

You obviously haven't done the reading if you say 'got over the hype'. It is evident from your arguments that you are simply arguing from a position of 'I don't want to think about it properly, so I'm going to say I buy organic food and make out vegetarians are all hypocrites'. I've not met anyone who has read the book I mentioned who could counter his arguments, and I've been arguing with people about this topic for a decade now.

[aerospacemango]

I, personally, love eating meat....

 

Just last week I had delivered to my house (on a farm estate) a brace of pheasant, freshly shot the previous day.

 

Did they experience pain? Of course they did.

 

Did I enjoy the meal? Of course I did.

 

I have no qualms about eating meat. I am aware of the processes that it goes through, and always try to buy local or good quality meat. I don't pretend to have tried vegetarianism (And that is not a dig at anyone, before you all start!!) and quite frankly, it doesn't appeal to me. Give me venison over lettuce, any day of the week.

 

That is MY personal taste. I would not foist it on anyone else, but think that if you can make an informed choice, either way, then you should do what YOU want, and not be brow-beaten by either side of the argument.

 

Peace to you all

[budgester]

Sure there are preachy vegetarians. But there are far more preachy meat eaters. Meat eaters like to preach at vegetarians, it happens all the time.

 

That I know, and fully understand, and have been on both sides of the fence, having been a vegetarian at one point, but I have yet to see hunting videos posted on sites such as this, whereas vegetarian ones keep popping up. Why ?

 

The point was, you were stating that arable farming kills animals too. To deny that would be silly, but the point is, by not eating meat, you are removing 1 layer of cruelty from your food.

 

The argument there is about the cruelty, of the final blow, there are humane methods of slaughtering animals, in the same way as there is inhumane ways.

 

And to say that boycotting altogether does nothing is silly. Have you seen the number of vegetarian products available now compared to a decade ago? Why is animal cruelty such an issue now when it wasn't such an issue 10/20 years ago?

 

The market is there for it, it's about the money, again I say the best way to change animal cruelty is buy choosing to buy products with the highest welfare standards.

 

The reason why it is an issue now, well lets look at some history, when did factory farming come about, I would suggest after the second world war when we were in dire need of food (hence the rationing). Before that there were lots more small local farms, and chemicals, food supplements etc, were not used organic free range was the norm. But after that it was quicker,cheaper and easier to breed/farm in an intensive way with no regard to welfare. However now we are finding out what was/is done and we are able to make a choice, Vegetarianism, Vegan, Factory, Free range, Organic etc. But the more ethical choices are more expensive, and we have got used to meat being cheap.

 

And I gotta ask the question why are so many processed vegetarian products made to replicate meat ?

 

Why not? What we eat should be a conscious decision each time.

 

I absolutely agree, having had an allotment in the past, and growing some of my own food in my garden now, I believe we should be more concious about what we put in our bodies, and I applaud people like Jamie Oliver for school dinners thing he did.

 

But on the other hand I have no problem with mass slug genocide.

 

It isn't about your own conscience. It is about thinking things through from an intellectual level also. ie. using logic to figure these things out, rather than simply following your emotions.

 

And that works both ways, as we all know nothing is black and white, which is what always bothers me about the general vegetarian/vegan etc attitude. It is very black and white. Vegetarianism = good. Meat = Bad.

 

How many people eat breakfast cereals ? These are carbohydrates with no vitamins or minerals in them at all, and have to have them artificially added.

 

The sensible thing to do about it is... think about your food.

 

Mmmmm food.. I love thinking about food, more so I love eating it.

 

Because we can choose to be humane, to help others and not simply be selfish. We're intelligent enough to do it.

 

But does the system always allow us too ? That's the problem with believing everything you are told and read. Do all the nike shoes have a label in them saying "Made in a far eastern sweatshop".

 

Never seen it presented as an answer to corruption but global warming? poverty? both would be helped by vegetarianism.

 

Obviously missing a trick there then :-).

 

But surely the farm animals help with fertilizing the ground, they are able to graze on areas where we are unable to produce viable crops, are are able to sustain families without large tracts of land that would be required to provide a varied diet.

 

It's all part of the ecosystem, take one part away at your peril.

 

Yes you are. You are calling vegetarians hypocrites, making out that everything they do is pointless. Being a vegetarian provides certain advantages both to society and to the individual, yet you are focussing on the negatives.

 

If you believe that being a vegetarian is the panacea to the worlds problems then yes I am calling you a hypocrite, why not go all the way become a vegan, live a self supporting lifestyle shun money and live in a barter economy. But your not, your sat on the internet, burning fossil fuels, in an industrialised 1st world country.

 

You obviously haven't done the reading if you say 'got over the hype'. It is evident from your arguments that you are simply arguing from a position of 'I don't want to think about it properly, so I'm going to say I buy organic food and make out vegetarians are all hypocrites'. I've not met anyone who has read the book I mentioned who could counter his arguments, and I've been arguing with people about this topic for a decade now.

 

I can't prove to you that I have done the reading, so lets not argue that point.

 

Would I have quite happily sat there on my allotment with a gun shooting pigeons that came down to eat the seeds I had just planted. Yes. Would I have then eaten them pigeons that I had just killed. Yes. In fact I think that preferable to just dumping the carcases. So I ask myself is that any different to eating free range organic meat ? And I personally can't see any ethical difference. Can you ?

[budgester]

I, personally, love eating meat....

That is MY personal taste. I would not foist it on anyone else, but think that if you can make an informed choice, either way, then you should do what YOU want, and not be brow-beaten by either side of the argument.

Peace to you all

 

I am in complete agreement with you, so why do people feel the need to post videos about factory farming on a technical site ? And then imply that me eating a bacon sandwich is wrong ? This is what makes me angry.

[speckytecky]

No budgester I don't agree with you. I think it's a legitimate posting highlighting unacceptable - so called farming practice in the USA.

 

As stated in the clip this practice is banned in the EU and most other American companies are outlawing it as well.

 

If humans didn't eat meat then there would be no need for cows, sheep, chickens, pigs etc and farming has kept these species thriving on this overcrowded planet. However, farming has surely got to be humane and unacceptable practice such as this and USA factory dairy farming planned for the UK as illustrated in the campaign by 38 degrees is surely unacceptable for fair minded folk?

[budgester]

No budgester I don't agree with you. I think it's a legitimate posting highlighting unacceptable - so called farming practice in the USA.

 

As stated in the clip this practice is banned in the EU and most other American companies are outlawing it as well.

 

If humans didn't eat meat then there would be no need for cows, sheep, chickens, pigs etc and farming has kept these species thriving on this overcrowded planet. However, farming has surely got to be humane and unacceptable practice such as this and USA factory dairy farming planned for the UK as illustrated in the campaign by 38 degrees is surely unacceptable for fair minded folk?

 

Lets let these animals go extinct then, in fact why do we need animals at all ?

 

No milk, eggs, wool, food, etc etc

 

If you read the thread you can see I am against factory farming. But not farming in a humane way.

 

If the OP had posted the video, with a link to the petition then we can do something about it if we choose.

 

Don't just give me problems, I need solutions or at least some method of influencing the outcome. And the whole planet going vegetarian is not it. But there is no need to just post the video.

 

I love the bit that is highlighted in bold on that petition, it is more of a petition against local farmers losing their livelyhood than against the farm farm.

 

Educate the americans on their farming practices, get the organic free range movement going over there.

 

Of course there is the freedom of speech issue, and the OP is welcome to post whatever they want, but everyone else is also entitled to that same freedom.

[witch]

Oh for goodness sake - the argument isnt really about vegetarianism anyway, the argument is about cruelty to animals - shown in great depth in this and other videos.

To say that veggies kill other animals when growing crops is a specious argument, as it applies to all people, not just veggies. Personally I prefer non-pesticided products and would try to avoid killing anything if I can.

Not knowing where to draw the line is an issue that faces every single one of us, on every single issue, and something that we have to decide for ourselves - hopefully an informed choice- which is the reason for the video being posted - factory farming is a huge issue and people need to know about it when thinking about what to eat and what not to eat.

I'm really sorry that vegetarians bug you so much, budgester, but I resent being told that 'the majority' of vegetarians do this, that or the other when you cannot possibly know that.

I have no issues with wild animals who follow their instincts - or humans killing and eating meat that they need.

I apologise for saying humans are carnivores, I should have said that they are carnivorous in habit.

[Guest Guest]

Mmm bacon

[budgester]

Sounds like my bad luck, I must have just run up against the majority of militant vegetarians.

 

I'm sorry if I've offended anyone, must be my bah humbug christmas spirit.

 

Normal service will be resumed soon. Well as normal as I get anyway.