IT qualifications

[triggmiester]

After years working in industry (although not in IT), I am lucky enough to have got my first job as an ICT Technician

 

I have not been on any training courses or have any formal qualifications, only know what I have taught myself having owned a computer in one form or another since the age of 8.

 

I genuinely look forward to coming to work every day, and while the money isn't great at the moment, job satisfaction can be more important (and the holidays take the egde off as well)

 

I do not plan on being a technician for ever, I welcome the chance to move up the ladder at the first possible opportunity and I hope that supervisory/management experince gained in industry,won't hurt my chances.

 

I also agree with the earlier post about working in eduation over industry, much, much better!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[AshF]

I genuinely look forward to coming to work every day.... I hope that supervisory/management experince gained in industry,won't hurt my chances.

 

Do those two go together?

 

The main reason works been less than fun round here is due to understaffing. Which we're taking care of right now. Hopefully.

[Jake]

I'm with Geoff on this one, experience takes qualifications and kicks its head in, shoves an apple up its botty and leaves it bleeding in an alleyway.

 

I would take people with experience over qualification certificate waving people any day. I have seen people with certifications who didnt have a clue how to do the most basic of server/policy/AD related tasks.

 

Like many others on here, I dont own any certifications, and am entirely built on my experience of 20 years of farting about with PCs. At the end of the day, the problems and issues that can arise in this line of work are so hugely varied that no amount of certification can prepare you for it, often when a problem crops up, the solution is found not because you were taught it in a lecture or a book but because you have seen the problem before and have the experience of dealing with it.

 

Its a pity that so many employers focus so heavily on certifications, when an uncertified chap like me can outperform them in the ways of IT like Magnus Magnusson to David Beckham in general knowledge.

[Lee_K_81]

I'm with Geoff on this one, experience takes qualifications and kicks its head in, shoves an apple up its botty and leaves it bleeding in an alleyway.

 

I'm against you on this one Jake, I know paper MCSE's have devalued the cert, but at least it's something. Anybody could put on their CV that they have x amount years experience, and ask a friend at the company to write a reference, but an MCSE / or BSc / MSc / CCNA / etc. are there and can be handed over as proof. Ok, yes somebody might not be able to do something straight away but a good education / certifications shows an ability to learn. Even those people who have just read the book and dumped it onto paper to get their certs have some sort of intellegence about them. I'm not knocking experience, i think it's great, heck i'm getting mine now, but i know for a fact i would not have progressed as quickly as i have now if i hadnt got qualifications.

[Geoff]

but an MCSE / or BSc / MSc / CCNA / etc. are there and can be handed over as proof.

 

As qualifications they are fine. However the problems seem to be stemming from people lying about what qualifications they have. If all the CVs that come in have a long list of qualifications listed on them how else can you differentiate between them?

[MK-2]

my experience of 20 years of farting about with PCs.

 

does that go in the personal or professional part of your CV

[CyberNerd]

Surely this is a middle ground thing.

there are lots of 'experienced' admins who are good at clicking the next button - but don't have the underlying theory of what they are doing and either expose or bork their systems, likewise there are many people well qualified on paper but lack some of the practical aspects. It's not either/or.

[Jake]

my experience of 20 years of farting about with PCs.

 

does that go in the personal or professional part of your CV

 

Both

[Lee_K_81]

but an MCSE / or BSc / MSc / CCNA / etc. are there and can be handed over as proof.

 

As qualifications they are fine. However the problems seem to be stemming from people lying about what qualifications they have. If all the CVs that come in have a long list of qualifications listed on them how else can you differentiate between them?

 

But surely you are in the same position when it comes to people lying about their experience. If somebody hands over a certificate (assuming it's not forged) thats proof. If i say i've got 10 years working as this and that, etc. There's very little proof. I agree if you dont have the experience then it will show up pretty quickly but only the same as those who have the qualifications. Most computing students have some interest in IT and will have good practical skills to build on.

 

At the end of the day, the problems and issues that can arise in this line of work are so hugely varied that no amount of certification can prepare you for it, often when a problem crops up, the solution is found not because you were taught it in a lecture or a book but because you have seen the problem before and have the experience of dealing with it.

 

But if someone sees an error for the first time, by definition they've not dealt with it before, so having experience doesnt necessarily give you an advantage in that case.

 

Once you have qualifications you build up experience on the job, I would strongly recommend to anyone without qualifications or certifications to get some if they want to progress further. As somebody with qualifications nothing will change my mind, much the same as Jake and Geoff will probably be arguing the opposite.

 

@Uraken: what have you started!

[Jake]

 

But if someone sees an error for the first time, by definition they've not dealt with it before, so having experience doesnt necessarily give you an advantage in that case.

 

 

No thats true, it doesnt give you an advantage in that case, but then when someone hits a problem like that for the first time, their first port of call wouldnt be an educational course or a book, generally speaking their first port of call would be a site such as this one, where they can utilise the *experiences* of others in finding a solution. How many posts on this forum for instance contain the words "has anyone seen anything like this before?" , compared to "has anyone seen a book telling me how to solve this" or "anyone know a course where I can learn how to fix this"

 

Anyone who doesnt have certifications, sure, go ahead and get some, but only if you want, trust me you can do perfectly well in the industry without having a piece of paper to wave. I have

[Geoff]

As somebody with qualifications nothing will change my mind, much the same as Jake and Geoff will probably be arguing the opposite.

 

I have a degree in software engineering, some Cisco qualifications, some MS qualifications and LPI. They are just bits of paper. What helps much more to do my job is my experience.

 

It's also interesting to note that where as previously people like cisco used simple multiple choice or yes/no type questions for their certification exams they are increasingly moving over towards a lab environment and practical tests.

[Lee_K_81]

I'm not saying you dont need experience or that it isnt important, but at the same point i'm not saying that qualifications are any more or less important. A good balance is needed.

 

I have a degree in software engineering, some Cisco qualifications, some MS qualifications and LPI. They are just bits of paper. What helps much more to do my job is my experience.

I was a bit ignorant to assume that because you were arguing the case of experience over quals that you were unqualified. I apologise. But at the same point, you may not have gotten the jobs, been given backing for projects, etc, that gave you the experiences you got were it not for those qualifications.

 

It's also interesting to note that where as previously people like cisco used simple multiple choice or yes/no type questions for their certification exams they are increasingly moving over towards a lab environment and practical tests.

This is what should be happening more. These types of tests would provide more proof of what a person is capable of doing.

 

How many posts on this forum for instance contain the words "has anyone seen anything like this before?" , compared to "has anyone seen a book telling me how to solve this" or "anyone know a course where I can learn how to fix this"

Just because somebody has qualifications doesnt necessarily mean they go straight for a book, especially in IT. I hated books at uni. By the time they're published they're usually out of date within 6 months.

 

It may amuse you both that i didnt actually want to go to uni after college, i wanted the work & experience route, i just couldnt get a job, everybody was after graduates.

[acb_]

I read Law for my degree, qualified as a Solicitor, walked away from it 6 months post qualification, worked with a deaf charity for years, finishing by running communication services (interpreting) for our region, was made redundant, worked with another national charity, was made redundant, bought some MCSE training with the redundancy (got burned there, they were worse than useless ) and applied for current post purely on spec on the off-chance they might give me an interview and I might get some experience of what IT interviews were like. I had experience of home networking, being an enthusiastic self taught user and of being the Windows/application helpdesk in previous posts. No one was more surprised than me when on the basis of interview, practical tests and a written test, they offered me the job... They were brave enough to go for potential, lucky me

 

The MCPs are ok as far as they go - I have three - but I passed the first one with a score of 972 having used the OS in question only once...

[AshF]

It's also interesting to note that where as previously people like cisco used simple multiple choice or yes/no type questions for their certification exams they are increasingly moving over towards a lab environment and practical tests.

 

This needs to be the status quo*. Prevents too many people info-dumping and knowing answers only, not actually holding knowledge.

...

 

* as opposed to being THE Status Quo. :rock:

[broc]

Until they stop HR drones from writing jobspecs, whitiling candidates down, and conducting interviews, this will never happen

 

HR use qualifications as a filter mechanism. They sort application forms into heaps; those without the mandatory qualifications get discarded immediately; those that meet the mandatory qualifications go into another heap, those that exceed into another. Then they start from the top down & filter until they get enough to shortlist.

 

I was speaking to the MD of a small local IT support company a few months ago, he told me about the 'whizz-kid' they had just fired after a three month probationary period; he had 2 degrees inc a Masters; he had Microsoft & Cisco qualifications, what he lacked was practical ability. They had tried to teach him the basics in a test lab but he could not apply any of his knowledge in the real world.

[Uraken]

so what do we all think about the current situation about reids proposals for the home office then?

 

 

 

a joke

it was a joke i tell you.

thanks all for the lively debate and info i'll pass it on to the student that asked...

[Jake]

I can empathise with that Broc, one chap I knew a while back had MS qualifications, I was stunned when he came to me to ask how to install an application on his home pc (cant remember what system he had but he was trying to install something and it was because he was using an account on the pc without admin rights). I expect you would be hard pushed to find any "self taught" who didnt know how to install an application.

 

Now admittedly, it could have just been that the guy was a doofus

 

Perhaps a balance would be the best thing, all I can go by is my own life experiences, and so far generally the people I have met with no qualifications who are self taught have proven to be very skilled, and the ones with qualifications but little-no experience have proven to be pretty pants when it came to actually doing stuff. Again, that might not be the norm, as I say, its merely what I have experienced, hence given the choice I will take someone with the experience rather than a lesser experienced but "qualified" person

[Zoom7000]

I'm hoping to get some MCSE training paid for by my school. However, the MCSE is a long process, consisting of 5 day or so courses. Is there anywhere in London that offer "quicker" courses?

 

I'm tempted to do the self study and get the school to pay for the exams, however, it would be much nicer and more helpful to do some courses.

[Geoff]

I don't bother with the courses. I just turn up and do the exam.

[AshF]

all MCSE courses I've been on have been 3-5 days. This is because they fit a hell of a lot of information in those courses. You need that time. Most MCSE books are roughly the size of a Yellow Pages...

[mrforgetful]

all MCSE courses I've been on have been 3-5 days. This is because they fit a hell of a lot of information in those courses. You need that time. Most MCSE books are roughly the size of a Yellow Pages...

 

Yeh, and you have to love Microsoft Course 2273. This course is covered in 5 days but is actually a combination of courses 2274 and 2275. Nothing strange you might think, but those two courses and 5 days and 3 days respectively, meaning you are doing 8 days of course in 5.

[john]

I have no specific quals, working towards MCSE to get the blasted bits of paper that people seem to want in there minds shortlist and interview me for positions. I have 5 years of experience, and in that time built 3 systems from scratch and worked with the rest.

[AshF]

I have 5 years of experience, and in that time built 3 systems from scratch and worked with the rest.

 

Ok, to me, that'd be more likely to get you an interview than MCSE's...

 

But i'mw weird.

[john]

I have 5 years of experience, and in that time built 3 systems from scratch and worked with the rest.

 

Ok, to me, that'd be more likely to get you an interview than MCSE's...

 

But i'mw weird.

Thats exactly what I hope and wish people would see but some (not everyone) wants to see MCSE there, if it doesn't say MCSE, CCNA etc then they are not interested.

 

So how bout you come up here Ash and run a school up North and employ me as IT Manager

[ChrisH]

7 years experience and an MCSA and I recently didnt get shortlisted for an educational job because I didnt have a degree