dwhyte85 Posted August 25, 2010 Posted August 25, 2010 (edited) Purely in the interest of fairness to ALL members of the community, go chop this thread to pieces too http://www.edugeek.net/forums/educational-jobs/60481-operations-manager-service-delivery-manager-milton-keynes-50k.html ... It really makes little difference to me or anyone you've edited/chopped but it looks a bit like favouritism... or different rules for different people... not exactly professional like the forum demands. Edited August 25, 2010 by dwhyte85
GrumbleDook Posted August 25, 2010 Posted August 25, 2010 Purely in the interest of fairness to ALL members of the community, go chop this thread to pieces too http://www.edugeek.net/forums/educational-jobs/60481-operations-manager-service-delivery-manager-milton-keynes-50k.html ... It really makes little difference to me or anyone you've edited/chopped but it looks a bit like favouritism... or different rules for different people... not exactly professional like the forum demands. I've asked Mods to remove my entries to the above mentioned thread. They entries were only left in as I was asked to respond to a recruitment company on the validity of the salary to help see if I could identify possible applicants (1 identified so far). Can we also split this thread so this section doesn't interfere with questions about the above job?
dwhyte85 Posted August 25, 2010 Author Posted August 25, 2010 (edited) I've asked Mods to remove my entries to the above mentioned thread. They entries were only left in as I was asked to respond to a recruitment company on the validity of the salary to help see if I could identify possible applicants (1 identified so far). Can we also split this thread so this section doesn't interfere with questions about the above job? Grumbledook: PM, telephone or e-mail... did it need to be in the thread? Being slightly serious ... for what you are looking at surely this is meant to be in the region of £70k to put it into the same range as similar roles across the rest of the country? In a round about way that is a query about salary and whether it matches the role - directly what is (I mean was) being done here, in this thread. To me it makes no difference, purely from seeing people get bashed down for it (frequently), it's hypocritical to let you get away with it... ever read Animal Farm? "ALL ANIMALS ARE EQUAL, BUT SOME ARE MORE EQUAL THAN OTHERS" Made my point now... :-) Edited August 25, 2010 by dwhyte85 1
GrumbleDook Posted August 25, 2010 Posted August 25, 2010 This relates to the following thread http://www.edugeek.net/forums/educational-jobs/61414-academy-network-manager-priory-ruskin-academy.html to give a chance to discuss the relative merits of teh proposed salary without interfering with any questions about the job itself.
GrumbleDook Posted August 25, 2010 Posted August 25, 2010 As others have mentioned ... there are a few querie about the salary on this one ... £17k for a network manager and 12k for a junior ICT technician. They want a fair bit for the junior technician for that salary IME, having started at a similar salary (£11k 11 years ago) but I am distressed about the NM job being so low. It couls, as Jiser mentions, be a good starting point for someone coming up from a smaller school but without knowing more about the structure at the school (ie who you answer to, who does the budgets, who works on the development plan, etc) then I still think the job title is wrong or the grade is wrong.
SYNACK Posted August 25, 2010 Posted August 25, 2010 Posts moved from job posting thread to here, sorry about the mess regarding post order.
CyberNerd Posted August 25, 2010 Posted August 25, 2010 The Grade is related to the job description and not the Title. The Title doesn't really have anything to do the grade. They may as well have advertised for a headteacher or supreme overlord of technology. What matters is whether the roles and responsibilities of the job specification are in keeping with the rest of the staffing structure. I presume, as an academy, they don't need to follow County guidelines, so can pay what they want.
pete Posted August 25, 2010 Posted August 25, 2010 Grapevine suggests that school (Ruskin) is in a dire mess IT-wise. "Pentium 266s with 2K" was the phrase used when it came up in conversation. As for the Priory, they have a habit of paying peanuts. Everyone's got a bizarre story about the Priory.
djm968 Posted August 25, 2010 Posted August 25, 2010 Worms and can of spring to mind and I’m not sure it was such a good idea to post the vacancy now! Certainly has provoked some debate. (Runs and hides for cover)
Jiser Posted August 25, 2010 Posted August 25, 2010 Grapevine suggests that school (Ruskin) is in a dire mess IT-wise. "Pentium 266s with 2K" was the phrase used when it came up in conversation. As for the Priory, they have a habit of paying peanuts. Everyone's got a bizarre story about the Priory. Sounds like a horror story.
mb2k01 Posted August 25, 2010 Posted August 25, 2010 While I would agree with the general comments about pay - which seems much lower than post part of the county (even Cornwall!!) - I wouldn't quite see the role as all doom and gloom. Experienced Network Managers who want to progress are unlikely to apply unless there are other benefits (maybe they want to move to the area and can afford a pay cut etc), but the role sounds like a great opportunity for a Middle/Senior Technician type to grasp with both hands, make any sweeping changes that are needed and then move on with a solid reputation and "Network Manager" experience if/when it suits them.
techtopia Posted August 25, 2010 Posted August 25, 2010 .... but the role sounds like a great opportunity for a Middle/Senior Technician type to grasp with both hands, make any sweeping changes that are needed and then move on with a solid reputation and "Network Manager" experience if/when it suits them. At this point I'm going to presume that whoever is doing the recruiting there hasn't any clue as to what salaries should be paid, and when they fail to actually recruit anyone into the job, they review it and offer something considerably better. Anyone who applies for that job is degrading the value of the profession, in my opinion. Mind you, I don't like the £10 an hour "experts" who advertise "no fix no fee" services either, so I guess I'm just intolerant of those who'll work for peanuts. Trouble is, someone always will.
somabc Posted August 25, 2010 Posted August 25, 2010 (edited) Thats why we need to put more work into having a professional chartered society. Want to be an Accountant, better be a member of Institute of Chartered Accountants. Want to be a Banker, better have passed those Banking Exams. Want to be a Solicitor, better be a member of the Law Society. Want to be Teacher better have Qualified Teacher Status. Want to be a Doctor, better be a registered with the General Medical Council. Want to be a pharmacist, better be a member of Royal Pharmaceutical Society. Want to be a Dentist, better be a member of the General Dental Council. Want to be a Plumber, better be a member of The Chartered Institute of Plumbing and Heating Engineering. Want to be a Librarian, better be Chartered... Profession - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Take Teachers, you would never see a Teacher salary posted this low, it would be illegal under the The Education (School Teachers' Pay and Conditions) Order. Edited August 25, 2010 by somabc 1
HarryMonkey Posted August 26, 2010 Posted August 26, 2010 Grapevine suggests that school (Ruskin) is in a dire mess IT-wise. "Pentium 266s with 2K" was the phrase used when it came up in conversation. As for the Priory, they have a habit of paying peanuts. Everyone's got a bizarre story about the Priory. The email address on their website doesn't work either!!
dwhyte85 Posted August 26, 2010 Author Posted August 26, 2010 (edited) It could be a great project, turnaround a failing network/poor infra... it'd be great to put on the CV or just for personal satisfaction. Edited August 26, 2010 by dwhyte85
maniac Posted August 26, 2010 Posted August 26, 2010 (edited) Market conditions will dictate the salary that is offered for a job, if the school can sucessfully fill the post advertising the job at that salary then they are going to do so, it's a simple questions of economics. I'm not saying it's right, but that's the way the jobs market works. If I was out of work and desperate for a job, I'd apply for it even thouigh I know it's way under par for the job, but needs must. Certain people like Teachers, Police offices, Firemen etc. etc. are priveliged to have carefully negotiated salary deals with government, but it also caps what they can earn as well so it works both ways. Personally I wouldn't like to be in that situation, I like to think I'm paid what I'm worth and not what some piece of paper says I must be paid - if I'm any good then the reward will be forthcoming and if it isn't, then I go elsewhere. Edited August 26, 2010 by maniac
dwhyte85 Posted August 26, 2010 Author Posted August 26, 2010 (edited) I think the phrase pay peanuts, get monkeys springs to minds but you're right, alot of people out of work 16k is better than a punch on the bugle and benefits - alot of people out of work with families to provide for. Edited August 26, 2010 by dwhyte85
sonofsanta Posted August 26, 2010 Posted August 26, 2010 I'm the NM in a school round the corner, and whilst I would love to drop in a load of gossip in about the place, truth is I don't know anything, as I don't actually live in the town... but suffice to say, £17k is not the going rate for an NM in Grantham. I was on more than that as a bog standard technician at my last school as well, so even the argument "good for a technician moving up" doesn't hold up because I did just that, in the same town, and get significantly more than £17k. My technicians get more than that as well. As I say, I don't know any specifics about the place at all - couldn't even tell you where in town it is, tbh - but that is a dangerously low salary offering.
GrumbleDook Posted August 26, 2010 Posted August 26, 2010 There are professional bodies for IT and engineering, computing and IT Support. Interesting to see the professional body for teachers (GTC) is going ... but that is fine because the unions do the same job for them with regards to pay and conditions, but we would miss the 'professoinal standards' bit (even though they are heavily berated for the effectiveness of their panels). As much as a professional body for IT Support in education would be good, we are talking about national single status, a lot more accountability and the setting of standards of work that not everyone would agree to. These are good and bad things depending ou your point of view.
jamesb Posted August 26, 2010 Posted August 26, 2010 (edited) Thats why we need to put more work into having a professional chartered society. Want to be an Accountant, better be a member of Institute of Chartered Accountants. Want to be a Banker, better have passed those Banking Exams. Want to be a Solicitor, better be a member of the Law Society. Want to be Teacher better have Qualified Teacher Status. Want to be a Doctor, better be a registered with the General Medical Council. Want to be a pharmacist, better be a member of Royal Pharmaceutical Society. Want to be a Dentist, better be a member of the General Dental Council. Want to be a Plumber, better be a member of The Chartered Institute of Plumbing and Heating Engineering. Want to be a Librarian, better be Chartered... An accountant is an accountant - they may just be working on different sets of figures. Even a forensic accountant is just an accountant. A banker is a banker, doctor is a doctor (with a range of specialisms admittedly, but not a huge range), a pharmacist is a pharmacist, dist is a dentist, plumber is a plumber and librarian is a librarian. An IT professional could be anything from a starting technician to an enterprise admin in charge of a global network of systems to a test team member/leader to a programmer to a network engineer, and so on. So do we have separate institutes for all of the thousands of disciplines that can make up IT, reviewed weekly as new technology comes onto the market, or one big one that wouldn't be able to list the different possibilities, let alone represent the various disciplines? Edited August 26, 2010 by jamesb
jonny_2010 Posted August 26, 2010 Posted August 26, 2010 Has any one enquired about this job? Is the salary correct or is it a typo?
GrumbleDook Posted August 26, 2010 Posted August 26, 2010 A doctor is not just a doctor with a limited range of specialisms ... a doctor is a GP, is a surgeon (with a wide variety of specialisms), is a therapist, is a consultant, is an emergency practitioner ... yet they all come under the GMC. Of course we will have subsets in IT. Remember that IT is a tool ... so the same way you have bus drivers, lorry drivers, taxi drivers, pilots, train driver ... they all drive, but different jobs in different areas. Just because an artist uses a graphics tablet doesn't mean he is IT ... he is an artist (some do both) ... the same with animators ... accountants (heavy IT users) ...
jamesb Posted August 26, 2010 Posted August 26, 2010 A doctor is not just a doctor with a limited range of specialisms ... a doctor is a GP, is a surgeon (with a wide variety of specialisms), is a therapist, is a consultant, is an emergency practitioner ... yet they all come under the GMC. Of course we will have subsets in IT. Remember that IT is a tool ... so the same way you have bus drivers, lorry drivers, taxi drivers, pilots, train driver ... they all drive, but different jobs in different areas. Just because an artist uses a graphics tablet doesn't mean he is IT ... he is an artist (some do both) ... the same with animators ... accountants (heavy IT users) ... So how exactly do you qualify whether someone deserves to be a chartered IT professional? Degree? Completing an apprenticeship? Having years of experience? Having the right certificates? Any ideas?
somabc Posted August 26, 2010 Posted August 26, 2010 (edited) So how exactly do you qualify whether someone deserves to be a chartered IT professional? Degree? Completing an apprenticeship? Having years of experience? Having the right certificates? Any ideas? Why not in a similar manner to the Engineering Council. Accredited Courses, Exams and Relevant Experience can all be taken into account. Benefits of CEng professional qualification The status of being part of a technological elite Recognition of your expertise and hard work High self-esteem Higher earnings potential Improved career prospects Greater influence within your organisation and industry Access to life-long learning International recognition of your qualifications Letters after your name eg J.Smith CEng Eligibility The CEng professional qualification is open to anyone who can demonstrate the required professional competences and commitment. These are set out in our professional standard, UK-SPEC, and are developed through education and working experience. The process will be more straightforward if you have particular academic qualifications, which will also allow you to obtain interim registration. For CEng these are: an accredited Bachelors degree with honours in engineering or technology, plus either an appropriate Masters degree accredited by a professional engineering institution, or appropriate further learning to Masters level or an accredited integrated MEng degree However, you can still become a Chartered Engineer if you do not have these academic qualifications. Further information about the assessment process can be found in UK-SPEChistory_of_Technical_Education_v2.pdf Edited August 26, 2010 by somabc
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