Why?

[john]

Ah .. no, it wasn't a sticky ... because I am not a mod or admin and can't do it. Oh and none of them bothered to make it one. Typical ... sack the lot of them! You just can't get the staff nowadays! Bring back Brian Blessed! He'd soon get this lot sorted.

 

(hint to Mods ... can someone please sticky that thread please?)

Your lucky I've got some blutack left from sticking my Adobe magnets to my monitor at work

Done

[Guest theeldergeek]

 

Thank you for your support.

 

It wasn't contempt, it was exasperation and frustration - the poster had taken no notice of what I had said and was, IMHO, deliberately being inflammatory.

 

 

That was obvious

 

I just felt that the apparent contempt was a little off the mark, but it is obviously difficult to convey real emotions via text on a screen.

 

 

No one is stopping ANYONE discussing a job.

 

 

I'm not sure who that was aimed at, but I don't believe I have said anyone is?

 

But it seems we somehow want to have a halfway house with the jobs forum where different rules apply, and despite everyone's good intentions, it ain't gonna work. That is blatantly obvious.

 

My take on it is that you have a place for job adverts, and a place to discuss them. This is what you would do with a job advert you see in the paper. You would read the ad, then discuss it with your family/friends in the pub, over dinner, whilst walking the dog. If we can apply that to a dedicated forum, we have, I feel, the answer.

 

It's all very well folks saying "so don't post messages about the pay", but people do, and unless you want to spend a lot of your time picking through such posts, it ain't gonna work.

 

 

The admins and mods are doing their best to ensure that Edugeek remains a place where everyone can state their case without being viciously attacked or vilified for their views.

 

 

And in the main, because we all do have a common interest, a fantastic job is done by the mods, and as for the admins, well, look how great a place Edugeek is!

 

 

But, as Grumbledook said, the jobs thread went postal on more than one occasion so now is the time to hopefully take further steps to ensure fairness for all.

 

That is all I think anyone wants, we just have to reach a common ground to see that it is done - Admins, Mods, Supporters and Geeks.

 

 

 

.

[tmcd35]

 

It's all very well folks saying "so don't post messages about the pay", but people do, and unless you want to spend a lot of your time picking through such posts, it ain't gonna work.

 

 

Sorry, but I really don't see the issue here. The rules are now posted as a sticky at the top of the forum. If they are broken then the mods should delete the offending post(s). It's fair, the system is easy to understand and follow and the rules are clear for all to see. To my mind it really is as simple as "so don't post messages about the pay" and "take it to another thread".

 

Better still if pay is still such a contensious issue, even after the numerous threads we've had before on the subject, why not just start a generic thread on pay where we can all b*tch and moan to our hearts content on the subject.

 

As a previous poster has said - if you came into education IT expecting top dollar pay you should shoot your careers advisor.

[russdev]

Can this rule please be made available to all to see?

 

Surely, we either all 'play nice' on a level field, or we don't 'play' at all?

 

In another thread, it has been declared that this is a community of 'geeks for geeks', and we have all played a part in what Edugeek has become.

 

Whilst we clearly do need to have moderators, it is completely and utterly pointless to have contributors to a discussion who have absolutely no idea if they are about to be chastised or not because the moderators are following a seemingly unknown rule set by the admins.

 

That is quite simply a "them and us" scenario, and given the community that Edugeek is, I find that quite unpalatable.

 

If we ALL stick to the forum rules (nothing obscene, vulgar, sexually-oriented, hateful, threatening, personal attacks or otherwise in violation of any laws) and the rest of know what this rule is then there shouldn't be a problem. When, and only when a rule is violated, should a moderator step in.

 

This is Edugeek for heavens sake, we are 'in' this together, we are not the general public wandering into any old forum we happen across.

 

I was quite taken aback with one moderator who displayed such an air of self-importance at BETT simply because they are a moderator it was quite remarkable! I won't divulge the details here as it isn't appropriate, but I was left quite aghast at the time.

 

Aren't moderators there to see fair play, not censor opinion in an open forum simply because the discussion content isn't to their liking, which seems to have been the problem according to some posts being made?

 

This discussion needs to be had, even if it does leave a nasty taste in the mouth, because it concerns the future of Edugeek and in particular how the Jobs forum is going to be taken forward.

 

Does it remain an open discussion forum which is properly moderated, or does it become a closed forum in which only those advertising jobs are permitted to post?

 

.

 

First

 

Sticky on job section

 

http://www.edugeek.net/forums/educational-jobs/43120-discussions-about-job-adverts-please-read.html

 

Over rules and how community conducts itself we do agree need to be made more clearer and something that was discussed at BETT more on that later.

 

As for mods thing I will as you say take that to PM to discuss more.

 

Russ

[Guest theeldergeek]

You are right, it simply isn't working, and I believe the censorship to which you refer was by me - that would be the job thread where the poor OP had to suffer nasty attacks on him about his website - completely irrelevant to the job itself. He had asked me to remove the job altogether and was going to walk away, but I persuaded him to stay by promising to remove all the irrelevant, rude and flaming posts. I did leave the ones asking sensible questions about the job though.

 

I did something definitive about the jobs thread problem today - look where it got me

 

(actually, it got me exactly where I wanted to be - in the midst of a discussion where some very sensible ideas have been mooted)

 

Erm, if it's the thread I think it was, mine was one of the posts removed, and I certainly hadn't attacked or been rude to him, nor was my contribution irrelevant in my opinion. It might have been highlighting some errors with the advert, and perhaps the web site displaying said job, but I believe that that is positive feedback and entirely necessary to ensure the right candidates are attracted to the job. Sloppy advert, sloppy candidates.

 

Just wanted to clear that up

[mattx]

Chill pill anyone ?

[torledo]

I can't decide if you're attacking or defending her.

 

oh, it definitely looked like a brown nose to me.....woops, another '3rd party comment'. When am

i going to learn to take myself as seriously as some of the other posters do.

 

i do wish some posters would listen to themselves. With everyone wanting to take some sort of moral high ground, i'm surprised there's any room up there on that perch.

[tdawson]

Erm, if it's the thread I think it was, mine was one of the posts removed, and I certainly hadn't attacked or been rude to him, nor was my contribution irrelevant in my opinion. It might have been highlighting some errors with the advert, and perhaps the web site displaying said job, but I believe that that is positive feedback and entirely necessary to ensure the right candidates are attracted to the job. Sloppy advert, sloppy candidates.

 

Just wanted to clear that up

 

I think that PMs are the appropriate medium for informing people of problems with something like a job advert or their website. No-one wants a trail of their mistakes haunting them forever and by PMing you offer constructive criticism rather than publicly humiliating.

[Guest theeldergeek]

I think that PMs are the appropriate medium for informing people of problems with something like a job advert or their website. No-one wants a trail of their mistakes haunting them forever and by PMing you offer constructive criticism rather than publicly humiliating.

 

You have a valid point, and one I will take on board.

 

However, at that time, the forum was being used for general discussion and up to a certain point, the post being made were helpful and relevant. This would appear to be acceptable under current posting criteria.

 

What's the point in highlighting a spelling mistake via PM if it doesn't make anyone who might be applying aware?

 

For example, there was a recent job advertised in a London borough where the place name had been spelt incorrectly. Someone actually applying for that job, might have also simply copied the place name, and got it wrong, thus potentially looking sloppy in their application.

 

A quick post to the forum rectified this for the many, not just the one who might not have checked his PM's for some considerable time.

Edited January 19, 2010 by theeldergeek

[Guest theeldergeek]

oh, it definitely looked like a brown nose to me.....woops, another '3rd party comment'. When am

i going to learn to take myself as seriously as some of the other posters do.

 

i do wish some posters would listen to themselves. With everyone wanting to take some sort of moral high ground, i'm surprised there's any room up there on that perch.

 

Well, now you have seemingly turned on me for "brown nosing", perhaps you could inject something positive about what is being discussed, instead of criticising those who you see as 'moral crusaders' trying to get something sorted for the better?

Edited January 19, 2010 by theeldergeek

[tmcd35]

When am

i going to learn to take myself as seriously as some of the other posters do.

 

I wouldn't bother - life's too short.

 

With everyone wanting to take some sort of moral high ground, i'm surprised there's any room up there on that perch.

 

There's not. I'm doing my best to fight 'em of, I want this perch to myself - it's comfortable up here

[Guest theeldergeek]

Sorry, but I really don't see the issue here. The rules are now posted as a sticky at the top of the forum. If they are broken then the mods should delete the offending post(s). It's fair, the system is easy to understand and follow and the rules are clear for all to see. To my mind it really is as simple as "so don't post messages about the pay" and "take it to another thread".

 

Better still if pay is still such a contensious issue, even after the numerous threads we've had before on the subject, why not just start a generic thread on pay where we can all b*tch and moan to our hearts content on the subject.

 

As a previous poster has said - if you came into education IT expecting top dollar pay you should shoot your careers advisor.

 

I think the issue is that the mods shouldn't have to pick through the posts to find the bad ones, and secondly, you have disgruntled posters who don't feel they should have been moderated in the first place. At least, that's where I understand Witch to be coming from.

 

The rules weren't that clear, and if they were, they weren't easy to find. Now there is a sticky there, let's see.

 

Sticky or not, you are still going to have an element that will post inappropriately to the forum, and, as Witch has said, it would be great for it to become a place where professional companies can safely place professional ICT adverts.

 

That isn't going to happen all the time it is an open forum.

Edited January 19, 2010 by theeldergeek

[tmcd35]

Firstly appologies if I've disgruntled any posters, never my intent. I'm either expressing my opinion (as per the quoted post) or neively attempting to inject a little humor. Either way feel free to take with a pinch of salt - I do!

 

I will ask though, what is the job of a Mod? Maybe my understanding is a little off but I was under the impression they where volunteers who agreed to spend some personal time doing just that - picking through the post and moderating any that fail to meet DB's rules?

 

As you say they may not have been clear, but they are now. The sticky is there it's not a big deal let's move on.

 

My understanding of the jobs forum was that it's a place to post jobs other members may be interested in (which reminds me I spotted one the other day that some norfolk peps might like to know about).

 

If we want to attract professional ICT adverts then that may suggest a different site altogether and perhaps you are right a seperate locked classified section of the site would be good for these.

[HodgeHi]

I don't understand what the fuss is about really. I didn't catch the jobs thread that everyone is talking about.

 

But i would like to mention one thing. When your in the Job centre, reading through the jobs pages in the paper, do you all stop and read each advert, and if you find something that you don't agree with, then start ranting for eternity about these things?

 

Me? i just skip over it to the next one, and so on until I find one that suits me best and i like. It should be the same on here, and any other jobs advert website.

 

To summarise, see something that you don't like in a job advert? Don't take it like they set out to hurt you directly, just move on to the next advert. No need to get aggressive, nasty or feel the need to make a vicious comment. In fact no real need to make a comment at all.

 

Oh, and please don't hurt me

[Guest richard_s]

Thank you for your support.

It wasn't contempt, it was exasperation and frustration - the poster had taken no notice of what I had said and was, IMHO, deliberately being inflammatory.

 

 

Actually I wasn't been imflammatory I was staing my opinion based on my experience of other forums. Yes I know that people sometimes do not like what I have to say but if we liked everything that everyone said then life would be very boring indeed.

 

I have been with the site from its very early days, originally under a different use name and since i came came back i have noticed that the site has declined as it has got bigger. It used to be the case that things you could make comments that today are not deemed suitable and if an Admin had a problem with a post or poster it would be handled in private but now it seems that the Mods would rather make their comments public.

[EduTech]

Your lucky I've got some blutack left from sticking my Adobe magnets to my monitor at work

Done

 

Yeah just rub it in why dont you!! i wan't my set of magnets!

[sparkeh]

Hate to say it ... but EG is not strictly a democracy.

 

Perhaps this causes some of the confusion? Sometimes I feel that there are mixed messages about how EG should operate.

 

On one side we are told that its a community whose members shape the nature of EG. Yet as pointed out we don't have any real input on the rules of how it operates which, as the previous thread about rules here seems to indicate, are not clearly defined and pretty ad-hoc. When a discussion about this starts up we are then told that this isn't really the case and essentially its DB's site and he and his admins make the rules that are enforced by the mods.

 

Both sides have pros and cons, but perhaps its time a more definitive decision is made rather than the half way house we appear to have at the moment?

[Guest theeldergeek]

I don't understand what the fuss is about really.

 

The "fuss" as I see it, is about :

 

a) having moderators accused of over moderating posts in what is an open forum

 

b) moderators having to spend excessive time moderating unnecessarily in said forum

 

c) having an open forum with specific rules that don't apply elsewhere, which restricts what can or can't be discussed, confusing the issue further

 

d) taking the jobs forum forward to a point where it could actually become extremely attractive to professional organisations who have vacancies to fill, sourcing applicants from the elite membership of Edugeek'ers

 

e) therefore deciding whether to have a newly formed and dedicated jobs discussion forum and close the existing forum to anyone but advertisers.

 

I think that covers it?

 

Yes it is a fuss, and yes, probably quite unnecessary, however, there is without doubt an issue that needs addressing, and I for one don't believe a policy of "you can post this, but you can't post that" is going to work in said forum.

 

I'd like to be proved wrong now there is a sticky, but the pessimist in me thinks otherwise.

[mb2k01]

Absolutely spot on Sparkeh.

http://www.edugeek.net/forums/general-chat/46824-forum-rules-code.html

[mb2k01]

To pick up on an earlier point by GD - No one is claiming EduGeek is, or should be, a democracy.

What I always believed it was, was a COMMUNITY....

 

There is a subtle difference, but with both you would expect certain expectations, behaviour and rules to be made available in the hope they would be adhered to.

 

The problem we have is that a percentage of this community don't know how to conduct themselves properly, and are expected to follow rules which they haven't been made aware of in the first place!

[russdev]

To be honest the job section will sort it out as we have plan for it but need to work out the fine detail

 

Russ

[mb2k01]

To be honest the job section will sort it out as we have plan for it but need to work out the fine detail

 

Russ

 

"We" is an interesting word.

I assume your usage means "the small group of Admins" rather than "the wider EduGeek community".

[dwhyte85]

Moreover, it's a forum for discussion... - not a jobsite.

 

I think it's healthy for people to discuss pay & roles, it's not like the employer is going to change the pay based on what the forum says!

 

Maybe jobs should be a category in which people submit the details and they're displayed outside of the forum if they are not to be commented on.

[sparkeh]

To be honest the job section will sort it out as we have plan for it but need to work out the fine detail

 

Russ

 

That is good, however I think that this is a symptom of a wider issue that keeps coming up, unless that is addressed I imagine we will see this kind of discussion over another area, then another etc.

[GrumbleDook]

"We" is an interesting word.

I assume your usage means "the small group of Admins" rather than "the wider EduGeek community".

 

"We" is an interesting word ... people say "We need..." for things like sample AUPs, documentation, how-to guides ... and then some people take from what is created by a small group of members and then do contribute their versions back. Call me cynical but for every time I have heard "we" in many forums and communities it ends up being "we want to be heard ... but don't ask us to do the work".

 

This is part of the issue with community ... whether online or in the real world. I am so thankful to those who do contribute via discussion, in the wiki, via blogs, etc ... but when you consider the amount of members we have, the traffic we have, then the number of people asking questions, the number giving help ... there is still a gap around those that are willing to spend more time doing things.

 

Take the newsletter ... taken a few attempts to get off the ground, and falls down because people struggle with the time it can take. It happens ... the same way that people might say "someone needs to do something about anti-social behaviour" and then when asked to join a neighbourhood action group they keep quite and say things like "oh ... well that is what the police are there for ... I don't like the police but since we have them then they need to get their act together!"