Why?

[tmcd35]

Sorry but what is the point of then if we cannot post directly to the thread in question. It now seems like the mods are trying to dictate what we can and cannot say on on those posts and we all know where it can lead.

 

Maybe I'm missing something but I thought the point of that part of the forum was to make us aware of jobs we may be interested in.

 

Surely if we want to gripe about pay it'd be better taken to a seperate thread. I can't see what us being discontented with our pay and the general state of the education IT sector has to do with job offers.

 

If we are interested in the job but don't like the pay then we should take it up with the school directly rather than complain in the post. I did with both my previous applications and talked the schools involved into making better pay offers to me before I accepted the jobs. If the job doesn't pay enough and they won't budge then don't apply.

 

As for griping about pay it's been done to death before any way, getting a little old news now.

Edited January 19, 2010 by tmcd35

[torledo]

Wow, this thread still going, didnt know I was gonna cause a fuss!!

 

welcome to an internet forum. Sometimes the most inconspicuous of threads run for quite a few pages, some of it insightful, some of it pointless, some ridiculous......but only on here do such threads seem to create such a problem for some, and any alternate opinion a threat to the well orchestrated happy clappyness. And must eventually be locked otherwise you run the risk that someone without a pair decides to take offence, usually on someone else's part.

 

I don't think we're at that stage just yet, but you get a fair idea of the one most likely to come thundering in with their size 9's to tell everyone to grow up and how they are right.

 

but yes, i can see why your surprised it's still going. Me posting doesn't help, obviously. not 'helpful'

[IanT]

oh well, life goes on.

[russdev]

I am going to let this thread ride a bit (as long people play nice) to get peoples views but I would like to make one point very clear the mods are following a rule set by admins.

 

Please continue as before..

[mb2k01]

I am going to let this thread ride a bit (as long people play nice) to get peoples views but I would like to make one point very clear the mods are following a rule set by admins.

 

Please continue as before..

 

Rules that, unless i've missed something, none of the non-admin community have been either consulted on, OR had the opportunity to see listed anywhere....

 

See my earlier post and it's link to my previous discussion.

[Guest theeldergeek]

*sigh* Did you not read what I said? Plainly not.

 

 

Is the contempt entirely necessary?

 

 

Quite happy with discussion, but not in the jobs thread, as it can be unproductive and discourage people from posting jobs. AND information about said job gets lost in the general melee.

 

FWIW, I do not support the previously observed heavy handed moderation of the jobs forum whilst it is an open forum, which it is.

 

If a discussion is to take place in there about jobs, then it should be allowed to take place, albeit within the confines that moderation brings, i.e. no personal attacks, race hate, ad infinitum.

 

So, we either leave it as an open forum, or don't.

 

Personally, I would like to see separate 'jobs vacant' and 'jobs discussion' forums.

 

The only reservation I have about not having a dedicated forum, is that, for example, discussing jobs in "General chat" risks the same fate of the thread being lost in the melee due to the volume of other threads being posted. Therefore, I think a dedicated forum for jobs discussion alone is required.

 

I appreciate you are perhaps little more in the Edugeek organisation than a forum moderator, but if you feel there is a just cause, maybe you could take up the gauntlet and actually do something about the problem instead of simply 'moderating' the forum to a level which it would appear is not entirely to the satisfaction of some of your peers, FWIW, me included.

 

 

 

.

[torledo]

Is the contempt entirely necessary?

 

with that particular poster, it appears, more often than not...ditto the exasperated tone. LOL.

[localzuk]

I'm not sure what the problem is with this entire subject? The jobs that are posted are there to advertise posts, not as a catalyst for discussions about pay. What is the value of shouting about pay on posts? All it does is make advertisers of jobs say 'well, people on that site don't want us to post' and end up not posting here. How would that aid this site or its membership? It doesn't at all.

 

As far as I can see, leaving it as just a post seems like a good idea. Discussions aren't usually on topic to that job anyway after a few posts - they just turn into 'we don't get paid enough' posts.

[Guest theeldergeek]

I am going to let this thread ride a bit (as long people play nice) to get peoples views but I would like to make one point very clear the mods are following a rule set by admins.

 

Please continue as before..

 

Can this rule please be made available to all to see?

 

Surely, we either all 'play nice' on a level field, or we don't 'play' at all?

 

In another thread, it has been declared that this is a community of 'geeks for geeks', and we have all played a part in what Edugeek has become.

 

Whilst we clearly do need to have moderators, it is completely and utterly pointless to have contributors to a discussion who have absolutely no idea if they are about to be chastised or not because the moderators are following a seemingly unknown rule set by the admins.

 

That is quite simply a "them and us" scenario, and given the community that Edugeek is, I find that quite unpalatable.

 

If we ALL stick to the forum rules (nothing obscene, vulgar, sexually-oriented, hateful, threatening, personal attacks or otherwise in violation of any laws) and the rest of know what this rule is then there shouldn't be a problem. When, and only when a rule is violated, should a moderator step in.

 

This is Edugeek for heavens sake, we are 'in' this together, we are not the general public wandering into any old forum we happen across.

 

I was quite taken aback with one moderator who displayed such an air of self-importance at BETT simply because they are a moderator it was quite remarkable! I won't divulge the details here as it isn't appropriate, but I was left quite aghast at the time.

 

Aren't moderators there to see fair play, not censor opinion in an open forum simply because the discussion content isn't to their liking, which seems to have been the problem according to some posts being made?

 

This discussion needs to be had, even if it does leave a nasty taste in the mouth, because it concerns the future of Edugeek and in particular how the Jobs forum is going to be taken forward.

 

Does it remain an open discussion forum which is properly moderated, or does it become a closed forum in which only those advertising jobs are permitted to post?

 

.

[GrumbleDook]

Rules that, unless i've missed something, none of the non-admin community have been either consulted on, OR had the opportunity to see listed anywhere....

 

See my earlier post and it's link to my previous discussion.

 

Hate to say it ... but EG is not strictly a democracy. DB, in his ineffable wisdom, has a team of Admins. He has also happily been supported by Mods too. Modding is done on a voluntary basis and the general guidelines get talked about by Mods and Admins. Pretty much like a lot of other forums out there really.

 

The rule about jobs and not having a go at the salary *in the same thread* was discussed by Mods and Admins quite a while a go, when I was still there actually, and the idea was put that stifling the discussion completely would be a bad thing, but giving the flames a free rein was a bad thing too.

 

Guess what ... a compromise was reached and the idea of creating another thread if you want to discuss the salary was agreed. Discussions about the job itself, the interview process, the school and its activities, where it sees itself in years to come etc ... fine, in the same thread ... the repeated gnashing of teeth about the plight of under paid workers (and yes, many are) can go into another thread.

 

DB like the idea ... and as far as I have seen still does.

 

The whole process of discussing salaries against job descriptions has some merit ... but at times it verges on attacks on the OP ... someone who might have no control and would dearly love to increase it .. but does not have the authority so is trying to do the best they can.

 

It was a compromise ... and was fine until it got repeatedly abused. Mods have said ZH is looking into what can be done, most people have said that they still want to discuss things (following good nettiquette) so how about just leaving it for a bit until a technical solution is put forward.

[Guest theeldergeek]

with that particular poster, it appears, more often than not...ditto the exasperated tone. LOL.

 

She may have her faults, we all do; and you may have an opinion, we all do; but suggesting as you do, her posting characteristics on the occasion in question are commonplace is quite uncalled for.

 

Witch does a lot for Edugeek, and whilst I am perhaps at the forefront of challenging her on occasion, I really don't think she deserves to be disrespected by a 3rd party comment.

[GrumbleDook]

@theeldergeek

If you have a concern about a Mod then use the Message the Admins section or PM DB himself. As for the rule about posting on the Jobs forum, then it has been publicised before and I'm pretty sure it was me that posted it too.

 

Mods are not censoring things as far as I can see .. they are just saying don't post the rant in the same thread. That has been abused so they are looking at alternatives. Mods will also take proactive action (as happens on other public forums as well as private ones) if they see a repeat is happening of something people have been asked not to do. We can all spot when it starts ... it doesn't take a rocket scientist. So ... instead of waiting for abuse to fly between members they step in and point out that things could get out of hand ... a quiet "look, why don't you take a steep back for a bit and have a breather" to all parties ... nowt wrong with that surely?

[powdarrmonkey]

Is the contempt entirely necessary?

 

Given the constant mod-bashing going on lately, I think the exasperation is entirely justified.

 

Rules that, unless i've missed something, none of the non-admin community have been either consulted on, OR had the opportunity to see listed anywhere....

 

I think mods and admins alike have made their position perfectly clear on more than one occasion.

 

Once again a handful of members seem to feel that EduGeek is here for their own convenience and they are entitled to tread all over everybody who works so hard to make it a pleasant place to be. Well it isn't, and if you don't like that you should consider yourself lucky it is here at all.

 

 

Edit: started before and in total exclusion to GD's posts, read into that how you will.

[powdarrmonkey]

She may have her faults, we all do; and you may have an opinion, we all do; but suggesting as you do, her posting characteristics on the occasion in question are commonplace is quite uncalled for.

 

Witch does a lot for Edugeek, and whilst I am perhaps at the forefront of challenging her on occasion, I really don't think she deserves to be disrespected by a 3rd party comment.

 

I can't decide if you're attacking or defending her.

[mb2k01]

@GrumbleDook

That is all well and good, but only admins and mods are party to those discussions aren't they.

You can't point at the existence of discussions, agreements (aka rules?!) when they aren't published. It's fairly obvious problem with a fairly obvious solution.

 

I might just add that with this specific issue I actually agree with you - I cringe when I read the vacancy threads with people sniffing at the salaries, but the above point is still valid.

[GrumbleDook]

Found it ... http://www.edugeek.net/forums/educational-jobs/43120-discussions-about-job-adverts-please-read.html

[witch]

Thank you for your support.

It wasn't contempt, it was exasperation and frustration - the poster had taken no notice of what I had said and was, IMHO, deliberately being inflammatory.

No one is stopping ANYONE discussing a job.

The admins and mods are doing their best to ensure that Edugeek remains a place where everyone can state their case without being viciously attacked or vilified for their views.

But, as Grumbledook said, the jobs thread went postal on more than one occasion so now is the time to hopefully take further steps to ensure fairness for all.

[Guest theeldergeek]

@theeldergeek

If you have a concern about a Mod then use the Message the Admins section or PM DB himself.

 

I don't have a concern, per se, not enough to warrant a complaint anyway.

 

 

 

As for the rule about posting on the Jobs forum, then it has been publicised before and I'm pretty sure it was me that posted it too.

 

 

Clearly it needs clarifying because it quite simply isn't working. It is causing extra and unnecessary work for the moderators, and unrest within some elements of our community.

 

Something definitive needs to be done.

 

 

Mods are not censoring things as far as I can see .. they are just saying don't post the rant in the same thread. That has been abused so they are looking at alternatives. Mods will also take proactive action (as happens on other public forums as well as private ones) if they see a repeat is happening of something people have been asked not to do. We can all spot when it starts ... it doesn't take a rocket scientist. So ... instead of waiting for abuse to fly between members they step in and point out that things could get out of hand ... a quiet "look, why don't you take a steep back for a bit and have a breather" to all parties ... nowt wrong with that surely?

 

I don't entirely agree that a small minority aren't censoring (or have censorship tendencies) but as it isn't really a major issue, and I don't have immediate examples to hand (because they get removed and i can't quote them) I can't really take that matter forward.

 

No, there is nothing wrong with the moderation you describe. I don't believe I said there was?

Edited January 19, 2010 by theeldergeek
amended

[Guest theeldergeek]

Found it ... http://www.edugeek.net/forums/educational-jobs/43120-discussions-about-job-adverts-please-read.html

 

Is that a sticky? It's the first time I've seen it, and I look at the jobs forum a lot.

 

Note to boss : only because I like to see who's doing what, not because I am looking for another job

[GrumbleDook]

@GrumbleDook

That is all well and good, but only admins and mods are party to those discussions aren't they.

You can't point at the existence of discussions, agreements (aka rules?!) when they aren't published. It's fairly obvious problem with a fairly obvious solution.

 

I might just add that with this specific issue I actually agree with you - I cringe when I read the vacancy threads with people sniffing at the salaries, but the above point is still valid.

 

The problem with internet democracy is that unless you run it as a complete democracy then you are paying lip service. Unless all members have a chance to vote on who should be a mod then you will get some people who are not happy with the selection ... and if everyone does have a vote then you will get some people not happy with the selection.

 

One issue is that even if the Mods were to set down a FAQ to raise the results of discussions about things then not everyone will read it. People will make mistakes and then others will jump on them as a form of member moderation (we had a spate of that about 2 years ago IIRC) and people ended up getting hacked off then.

 

These things just go in circles. We've had censorship already this year ... we have also had "what is edugeek" too ... we just need some more teacher bashing, slagging off BSF, raising questions about the adverts, asking if EG has gone too commercial, a discussion about religion and some more humorous websites and we have squeezed in a repeat of 2009.

 

Nowt wrong with having the discussions but some are vampire threads ... and it might be worth actually looking at the old threads and posting on the end of them so people can see the previous discussions.

[Guest theeldergeek]

I can't decide if you're attacking or defending her.

 

I think I was probably defending her in a round-about way

[witch]

Clearly it needs clarifying because it quite simply isn't working. It is causing extra and unnecessary work for the moderators, and unrest within some elements of our community.

Something definitive needs to be done.

 

You are right, it simply isn't working, and I believe the censorship to which you refer was by me - that would be the job thread where the poor OP had to suffer nasty attacks on him about his website - completely irrelevant to the job itself. He had asked me to remove the job altogether and was going to walk away, but I persuaded him to stay by promising to remove all the irrelevant, rude and flaming posts. I did leave the ones asking sensible questions about the job though.

 

I did something definitive about the jobs thread problem today - look where it got me

 

(actually, it got me exactly where I wanted to be - in the midst of a discussion where some very sensible ideas have been mooted)

[GrumbleDook]

Is that a sticky? It's the first time I've seen it, and I look at the jobs forum a lot.

 

Note to boss : only because I like to see who's doing what, not because I am looking for another job

 

Ah .. no, it wasn't a sticky ... because I am not a mod or admin and can't do it. Oh and none of them bothered to make it one. Typical ... sack the lot of them! You just can't get the staff nowadays! Bring back Brian Blessed! He'd soon get this lot sorted.

 

(hint to Mods ... can someone please sticky that thread please?)

[tmcd35]

(hint to Mods ... can someone please sticky that thread please?)

 

Pretty much solves the problem. Rules are listed in a sticky at the top of the forum. Really don't see the problem some are having with this. Is it really too much to take pay gripes to another thread?

[tdawson]

As someone who posts jobs I think the locked jobs section is a great idea.

By all means take a discussion about the job off to another area, but if people want to see jobs on EduGeek then Senior Management within schools need to be convinced of its worth and that it offers access to skilled professionals (not crazed pedants).

Incidentally, I do have some control over salaries and think that those we have offered are reasonable for the field in which we work. If you want big bucks you were seriously misdirected by your careers officer when they said "Why not work in education IT support?"