FUJITSU SIEMENS ALERT!!!

[jimbopem]

I would be interested to know if any of my esteemed colleagues have encountered the following problem...................

When connected via USB, the Esprimo 2520 loses its connection to a Smartboard after a few minutes, and then requires a reboot.

 

We supplied 11 of these units to a primary school several months ago (and to others!!!), and they have now decided to use them all front of class and connected to smartboards.

It took quite a while of troubleshooting before we contacted Warranty Support, who diagnosed that the PSU spec is too low to run a smartboard. Needless to say, given that these units are actively marketed via distribution to this sector (words from FSC as well as me) I was rather bemused that these models are not suitable for running a usb smartboard. I have never come across this problem since smartboard started supplying USB connectors with their boards.

 

FSC's position is that they are not broken, so there is nothing they are willing to do about it (see copy of emails below and letter to distribution in attachment).

At the end of the day I accept that, as a consultant we are responsible for the advice we give, therefore my advice is (not that you need it ) to do your research, because the manufacturers won't bail you out.

 

Has anyone had a similar problems with any other make/model? I would be interested to know which budget business makes/models at this price point can be recommended.

 

In the meantime it looks like I will be supplying a large number of powered USB adapters FOC!!

 

Thanks

Jim Pemberton

Managing Director, ICT In Education Limited

 

Please note I have e-mailed this link to those concerned so that they have the opportunity to make comments if they so wish.

 

Here's the email reply from FSC.........

(From me to Mark Vatcher at Fujitsu Siemens as a reply to his email to me)

 

Hello Mark

 

I am disappointed that you are unable to offer further support on this issue. As I explained in the letter I am not claiming that the computers are inherently faulty within the terms of the warranty agreement.

My interest is in the first instance, looking after the interests of my customer, and secondly ensuring that we as a consultancy are providing all our customers with the correct advice.

I considered that you would wish to have the opportunity to retain your position within the education sector viz manufacturing low-cost "fit for purpose" systems. If, given what you are saying, the P2520 is not suitable for running a smartboard, then I would suggest you notify through the channel of this issue.

My position is to offer a "fit for purpose" low cost system that I can recommend to my customers. I do not know of any problems with low end business units that other manufacturers are offering at the P5250 price-point. However, I will share this information within the education support community with a view to establishing a competent alternative.

 

At this point I will be withdrawing our affiliation with Fujitsu Siemens

 

 

Regards

 

Jim Pemberton

 

 

 

 

On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 12:52 PM, Vatcher, Mark wrote:

 

Jim/Andy,

 

Looking at the letter and after receiving advice from both our Support teams and Product Operations in Germany, this is not a warranty issue.

 

The ESPRIMOs here were replacing SCENIC P300, but according to 2nd Line engineering, the ESPRIMO P2520 does not have the same power reserves as the SCENIC Ps and are therefore not capable of suppporting the Smartboards in the same way that the SCENICs could. The ESPRIMOs are NOT faulty, simply different from the SCENIC Ps. The ESPRIMO P2520 is an entry level system whereas the entry level SCENIC model was the SCENIC X. The SCENIC P300 was one of the Business Plus models as per the ESPRIMO P5730/P7935 today.

 

Unfortunately the PC sold to this customer, comes with 210W PSU which from your letter is not enough for the mentioned smartboard. This smartboard is also not tested and qualified from our side.The only way to be sure the unit can support the smartboard would be to test this accessory in combination with this system in advance or to read the datasheet with the PSU information and compare it to the requirements of the device recommended by the smartboard.

 

This is an unfortunate situation, but seeing these units are not faulty, I am unable to offer any further support.

 

Regards

 

 

Mark Vatcher

Account Director

Fujitsu Siemens Computers Limited

FSC Campus,

The Boulevard,

Cain Road,

Bracknell,

Berkshire

RG12 1HH

[localzuk]

I thought that the power specifications of USB were set as a standard? Universal Serial Bus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

So, there are a couple of questions...

 

1. What are the requirements of the smartboards? the maximum under the spec is 500mA at 5V.

2. Were the machines labelled as being USB2 compliant?

3. If the first question reveals that Smartboards are not compliant with USB2 specifications, are they marketted as such?

[Tallwood_6]

I wouldnt have thought that the Fujitsu Siemens will be the only machines that encounter this problem, i know some Mac's have had problems properly powering devices over usb.

[localzuk]

Right, an answer to question 1 (and 3):

 

The power requirements for a smartboard are 300mA at 5V. This is well within the USB2 specifications.

 

An answer to question 2:

 

The Esprimo 2520 is marketted as having 8 USB2.0 ports, according to the F-S website.

 

This means that the computer is not compliant with the specification for USB2. and therefore, in my opinion, is actually in breach of the trade descriptions act, as it in effect is rendering the units not fit for purpose.

 

I would continue to pursue this issue with them if I were you, as they have misled you!

Edited February 18, 2009 by localzuk

[AngryTechnician]

They certainly are set as standard, but my own experience as a hardware tester for a USB-IDE bridge chipset manufacturer tells me that an awful lot of USB chipsets do not follow the standards properly. We used a ridiculously expensive protocol analyser from LeCroy (then called CATC) that was amazing at dissecting exactly what was going on over the bus, and it was astounding how many products cut corners in their protocol implementations.

 

A lot of the time it's quite subtle and they get away with it, but this sounds like it is not one of those times.

[localzuk]

They certainly are set as standard, but my own experience as a hardware tester for a USB-IDE bridge chipset manufacturer tells me that an awful lot of USB chipsets do not follow the standards properly. We used a ridiculously expensive protocol analyser from LeCroy (then called CATC) that was amazing at dissecting exactly what was going on over the bus, and it was astounding how many products cut corners in their protocol implementations.

 

Which, under UK law, means they are acting illegally if they market those products as USB2.0 compliant.

[Michael]

I thought USB specifications were standard also and I still believe this is the case, otherwise USB wouldn't be so universal after all...

 

To be honest I don't personally believe it is a PSU issue. Many laptops don't have 200w PSUs yet come complete with 4 or more USB ports these days. I think the easiest solution is to supply/install a PCI USB 2.0 card or alternatively, a powered USB hub but this can look messy.

[SimpleSi]

Hi Jim

 

I think the easiest solution is to supply/install a PCI USB 2.0 card or alternatively, a powered USB hub but this can look messy.

 

And then if it works - I think you proved its their tatty computer and gets you out of current hole (but you've prob already done this ).

 

If you'd like to pass on that another person (me) who has used FJs since starting off in the job and is effectively purchasing manager for 8 schools will no longer be buying them until you've received a better response (e.g one starting with sorry and ending with a solution ) as if they can't be relied on to run a Smartboard then they're not suitable for education use.

 

Many times, a class machine is moved into service as a replacement for a teacher laptop - I can more forgive a laptop for not working with a Smartboard than a desktop!

 

On the other hand, I'd try one of them out at another school with another smartboard thats working with a desktop just to make sure Smart haven't done anything daft either (And I'll wager money that they'll never admit to it being their fault )

 

So, I wonder if people could recommend an alternative low cost desktop machine that does work with Smartboards for my next suite rolllout

 

regards

 

Simon

[TechSupp]

I know it may be a simple solution, but might it not be that the power saving for the USB in Device Manager needs turning off? I do this for any whiteboard PC and we are running all Fujitsu at one school even those mentioned I'm sure (not at work so can't check).

[SimpleSi]

but might it not be that the power saving for the USB in Device Manager needs turning off? I do this for any whiteboard PC

 

There's good and bad sides to this

 

1. Nice to know that there is setting that needs checking

 

2. Bad to find out that such a setting even exists and needs checking

 

regards

 

Simon

[PeterW]

Unfortunately the PC sold to this customer, comes with 210W PSU which from your letter is not enough for the mentioned smartboard.

 

LOL a 210W psu can not run a 5v 500mA USB port, awesome.

 

Does it work ok with the ports set to USB 1.1 in the bios?

 

Have you also tried all variations of these settings as detailed in the BIOS manual?

 

USB Ports

Configures USB ports according to device classes. Any disabled USB ports are

also not available under the operating system.

Disable Unused Ports All unused USB ports are disabled.

Disable Storage And HUB All ports with Mass Storage Devices and HUBs are disabled.

Keyboard And Mouse Only Only the ports with the keyboard and mouse are enabled.

Enable all All USB ports are enabled.

 

Are you able to find any smaller powered USB devices (scanner perhaps?) that also shows the issue, if so you could then send said item to FSC so that they can see the issue and hopefully fix it.

Edited February 18, 2009 by PeterW

[jimbopem]

We haven't made any changes to USB settings in BIOS but will give it a go next time we are in and report on it. Yes Si, in any event FSC's response is, IMO, very disappointing to say the least. Think I will be talking to Lenovo.

[jimbopem]

P.S. beware the V5535 laptops - 1hr max normal wireless useage

[Red_Barchetta]

I know it may be a simple solution, but might it not be that the power saving for the USB in Device Manager needs turning off? I do this for any whiteboard PC and we are running all Fujitsu at one school even those mentioned I'm sure (not at work so can't check).

 

 

Have had a similar problem with the power saving on USB stopping the keyboard/mouse bringing a machine out of power save. I turn it off bby default when setting any machine up now.

[TechSupp]

Yes I know it seems daft when its a desktop thats plugged in to the mains but I suppose its a catch all version for windows. Would have been better to have it turned of by default at install and only turn it on when yop initiate power saving generally i.e. when its installed on a laptop etc. First came across this a while ago when a teacher was complaining about having to shut down her laptop intermittently to re connect her printer to it. Turned usb power saving off and hey presto problem solved. Had it when connecting to a whiteboard before as well.

[chrbb]

Quite confused about this - even our very old fujitsui siemens lifebook c series laptop copes with a smartboard. It's about 5 years old and doesn't have a problem:confused:

[synaesthesia]

Seen a few of these particular machines on smartboards with absolutely no problems - however I wasn't involved in setup. Again though, I can't see any reason why they shouldn't work and to mirror what's been said in the unlikely instance of the supplied ports not being fully compliant the machines shouldn't be sold.

Suspect it's merely a power management issue.

[Spitfire]

This might explain a fist full of problems here as we run our Smartboards with old low spec Dell computers and they are forever dropping the usb connection. Where on the Smart web site does it give the spec of 300ma @ 5v, I've never seen or heard that before.

[Tony_Mc]

 

So, I wonder if people could recommend an alternative low cost desktop machine that does work with Smartboards for my next suite rolllout

 

regards

 

Simon

 

Excuse my ignorance, but what price range is considered low cost?

 

Tony

[localzuk]

This might explain a fist full of problems here as we run our Smartboards with old low spec Dell computers and they are forever dropping the usb connection. Where on the Smart web site does it give the spec of 300ma @ 5v, I've never seen or heard that before.

 

It's in the spec documents for each board. Such as http://www2.smarttech.com/NR/rdonlyres/63867529-726D-4AF3-8632-E8A13369C76E/0/SpecSheetSB660v27Aug08.pdf

[SimpleSi]

I know it may be a simple solution, but might it not be that the power saving for the USB in Device Manager needs turning off?

 

Where is this setting please?

 

but what price range is considered low cost?

 

£10

 

Cost isn't my main issue - I started with FJs and liked them because of the ease of use in getting to the insides and ability to plug another drive in quickly (They used to be on plastic rails and the sides came off with using tools) and the beefy OTT PSU that could also be easliy exchanged with tools in the case of a fault.

 

Engineers dream

 

I used this facility as my main method of cloning a machine quickly and simply.

 

They stopped the easy slide in and out drive bay but by then I'd moved onto cloning from image on 2nd partition so it wasn't needed anymore.

 

Now the PSU's have been replaced with standard looking ones - and the last machines I got need a screwdriver to get the side off.

 

But I've kept buying them because they've worked OK - their driver site is good and my main supplier is a dealer for them

 

But now a fellow technician has been given grief by "support"

 

Time to move on - if you treat your customers badly, that's what happens - it just business and not personal and I'm sure the next company will do the same eventually but for a few years, we might get some actual benefit before someone in that company turns the screw a bit too tightly.

 

But if you/we don't act - we'll just get trodden on.

 

So I'm not after low cost - I'm after someone who says - buy these ones - I've had little trouble with them and on the odd occasion I've had a fault - it's been rectified quickly and to my satisfaction.

 

regards

 

Simon

[TechSupp]

Where is this setting please?

 

Simon

 

Device Manager -> USB Controllers -> USB Root Hub -> Properties -> Power Management Tab -> Untick the 'Allow Computer to Turn off this device to save power'

 

Job Done!

 

I know its not to do with Fujitsu PC's but the only other PC I had problems with a Smartboard was an RM EcoQuiet PC which refuses to boot with the SmartBoard plugged in. Its a known problem and requires you to change the USB Speed setting in the Bios to High Speed I think to allow it to boot. Works fine after that. Just thought it might help someone as we are talking SmartBoards and USB.

Edited February 19, 2009 by TechSupp

[Tony_Mc]

Where is this setting please?

 

 

 

£10

 

Cost isn't my main issue - I started with FJs and liked them because of the ease of use in getting to the insides and ability to plug another drive in quickly (They used to be on plastic rails and the sides came off with using tools) and the beefy OTT PSU that could also be easliy exchanged with tools in the case of a fault.

 

Engineers dream

 

I used this facility as my main method of cloning a machine quickly and simply.

 

They stopped the easy slide in and out drive bay but by then I'd moved onto cloning from image on 2nd partition so it wasn't needed anymore.

 

Now the PSU's have been replaced with standard looking ones - and the last machines I got need a screwdriver to get the side off.

 

But I've kept buying them because they've worked OK - their driver site is good and my main supplier is a dealer for them

 

But now a fellow technician has been given grief by "support"

 

Time to move on - if you treat your customers badly, that's what happens - it just business and not personal and I'm sure the next company will do the same eventually but for a few years, we might get some actual benefit before someone in that company turns the screw a bit too tightly.

 

But if you/we don't act - we'll just get trodden on.

 

So I'm not after low cost - I'm after someone who says - buy these ones - I've had little trouble with them and on the odd occasion I've had a fault - it's been rectified quickly and to my satisfaction.

 

regards

 

Simon

 

Hi Simon

 

Currently we are in the intrim service for BSF, I have bought 90+ hp5800

 

Product Description HP Compaq Business Desktop dc5800

Processor 1 x Intel Core 2 Duo E7400 2.8GHz 1066MHz

Form Factor Small Form Factor

Cache Memory 3MB - Level 2

Chipset Intel G33 Express

Storage Controller Serial Attached SCSI

Hard Drive 250GB - standard - Serial ATA-300 - 7200 rpm

Networking Ethernet

Fast Ethernet

Gigabit Ethernet

RAM 2GB (installed) / 8GB (max) - DDR2 SDRAM - 800MHz

Graphics Controller Intel GMA 3100 Dynamic Video Memory Technology 4.0

Monitor None

Optical Drive DVD±RW (±R DL) / DVD-RAM

LightScribe Technology

Card Reader 16 in 1 card reader

OS Provided Microsoft Windows Vista Business / XP Professional downgrade

Dimensions (WxDxH) 33.7 cm x 37.8 cm x 10.0 cm

Weight 8.1 kg

 

Very pleased with them, build them up with bartPE, fast, reliable loads of usbs and also ps2 (old faithful)

 

not sure if that is waht you are after but i really rate the ones we have, none have been DOA either, always a bonus

 

Tony

[jimbopem]

Hi Si

My inclinination too is to try another manufacturer. We have been fsc resellers for 6 years and the reasons we stayed with them was because the warranty support was good, but I am finding that schools are preferring to miss out on the extended warranty anyway (cost V risk equation). The bloke I dealt with didn't even have the courtesy to call me and it took 2 weeks to investigate with absolutely no feedback inbetween. So, like you I am going to try elsewhere and use them as long as I think its the right thing to offer our customers

I'll let you know who we "fall into bed with" Si, maybe we can do business

 

Jim

 

P.S. you know who I am don't you??? (the good looking one LOL)

 

Tony - how much were the HP's?

[Earthling]

I worked for Fujitsu for a while as a Field Engineer, and, seriously, I wouldn't buy a Fujitsu with your money, let alone mine.

 

If anyone's interested, we use Gaia Technologies to supply our pc's....well put together, quality components, smart, fashionable piano-black cases which the kids seem to like, because they don't attack them in the normal manner, no hassle about DOA's or ELF's.....in fact very few DOA's or ELF's. They've supplied us wit hwell over a hundred pc's now, and I can only think of one DOA, which was replaced before we even returned it.