Laptops for students

[LeMarchand]

Insist on Anti-virus, and anti-adware, which is regularly run by the Parent/Guardian.

 

Insisting is all very well, but how many teachers do you know that update their anti-spyware regularly? Let alone parents. I've actually removed Spybot from our latest build as it never got updated - I know that it can be automated, but (IIRC) only to do stuff at logon which would further slow things down.

 

A fee for repairs not due to fair wear and tear, or laptop not fixed.

 

Totally agree, but without support from SMT it ain't gonna happen, and as all my schools are in "poor" areas it's almost impossible to enforce. Also laptop not fixed = excuse not to do homework.

 

An understanding that any software faults would be resolved by 'burn and re-build' - a ten minute job with Ghost and a USB stick - possibly even do-able by tech-savvy teachers, or even the students themselves - why not?? - it would solve the problem!

 

I've started to get to that stage, though (for various reasons) would say that the "work time" is 10-20 minutes while the "total time" is nearer 45. I'm hoping to finally get an MS SteadyState solution organised over Xmas which will have the children's documents on a separate partition and some sort of passworded "reset button" that the teachers can press to reset the machines without wiping out Little Johnny's work on the other partition. The main problem I'm having is that the reset will work by changing the date and that I need a "teacher friendly" (or automatic) way to correct the date after the reset.

 

We do this with the eee laptops. We get the kids/guardians to pay £120 as a deposit, which covers warranty breakages / illegal software removal / virus removal etc etc. We stick the linux software on that comes with it rather than windows as quite simply, windows is far more prone to crashes etc etc. Anything non-warranty (IE malicious damage such as the screen breaking) is charged FULL price to the parents. They have to sign a contract agreeing to it, if they dont then the children dont get the laptop, its as simple as that. So far we have managed to charge £900 in breakages to parents and the ones that did it have not broken them since.

 

For the reasons above, the charging aspect just wouldn't work at the school I support with laptops. I'm trying to push for Linux on the next wave as I don't think the kids would be shoving so much rubbish on, but suspect that the staff wouldn't be willing to learn new software.

[pagelad]

All of our Year 6's here have Asus EEE 4g's they take them home and have a wireless point in the classroom.

 

When they take them home they have T-Mobile dongles that go through a company called Synetrix which filters the access to unwanted sites.

 

Its a pain the backside though, they're constantly having connection troubles and dropping the things.

[K.C.Leblanc]

Yes we get that now with our mobile classrooms. I've lost count of the times staff have argued with me that the keys fall off. In many years of using a laptop none of my keys have "fallen off"

 

 

I had a key fall off, when I was hoovering dust of the head of science's laptop. The NM and JnrTech came down from the science roofspace (access ladder is in the cleaner's cupboard) and found me riffling through a Henry. It was only when I'd got myself properly filthy that the NM pointed out we had a broken laptop I could nick a key from.

[Heebeejeebee]

You may also want to consider how the school will cope with large numbers of machines coming into school each day with flat batteries because the kids forgot to charge them up or their parents/guardians objected to paying for the electricity

 

My argument exactly when our head suggested buying 1100 laptops for student use (because they can fit into their lockers ). My first question was 'and how exactly are we going to charge 1100 laptops?'

 

I've not heard any more about it since then.

 

HBJB

[Ex-MGSTech]

Some pointers when I last looked into this:-

 

School owned laptops - expect a 40% damage return

 

Unless you transfer ownership to the parent, School is responsible for WHAT is view at HOME via the internet. If you supply and own the laptops its your responsibility what they do with them at school AND at home (Impossible to Police)

 

There will NEVER be sufficient power sockets in a class

 

Put two partitions on the laptop with two copies of OS one for home use and one school, use MS Steady State on school partition to undo and changes at logoff

 

Using two partitions keeps home rubbish off the school partition.

 

Make the default boot the locked down school partition

 

Invest in another technician, one local school has a tech continuously re-imaging laptops and he has 20-30 per week (1500 on roll)

 

Insist on Accidental damage cover, students WILL break screens if they think it will get then a new unit.

 

Explain to parents that the insurance does not pay out indefinitely, more than three claims a year and they refuse to cover you next year.

 

Watch the market as a leading Laptop manufacturer is testing a laptop that can be cleaned in a bucket of water, dropped onto concrete from three feet and has a re-inforced screen that almost indestructable, oh and its touchscreen!

 

regards

 

Steve

[c13ggr]

Just a note about how we deal with laptops at our school..

 

we have several laptop trollies where the students logon to the network with restricted desktops - this is now working fine technically (we have a wireless controller set using VLANs) - although, inevitably we have the 'keys falling off' scenario and a couple of broken screens. We have learnt to manage this by checking the trollies and laptops on a fortnightly basis for ANY damage - this is then recorded and any damages since last time are highlighted. It is very much down to the teachers concerned to manage the laptops and they get hassle from the SMT when things go wrong.

 

We have now added another VLAN to separate 'guest' users to give them temporary access to the internet. We have also set up a group for students and teachers to use this entry too. This means that they can access their school work via the VLE without having to go via the school network.

This VLAN uses a separate IP range so is in effect a VPN, but it does still have the filtered net so our students are 'safe'. No doubt we'll still have the access problems, but hopefully not too many, and also we don't have to get too hung up about anti-virus stuff.

 

There's still a lot of hassles no doubt, but hopefully we are trying to work with the SMT (!!!) to both move in the right direction.

[hyden]

It amazes me why so many are so negative. You would think that we are discussing our own personal kit rather than something bought by the school to use with children (amazingly enough, schools are intended to work with children).

 

If people need to moan so much either find a new job in a different sector or go and ask the head whether you are paid to give children the IT facilities to help them learn or just build your own toy system and stop them using it for anything useful.

 

It's a fact that children and teachers find IT negative in schools where they "aren't allowed" to do things by the technician or network manager (who then prides themself on how well the system is locked down).

 

For those who insist on continually complaining: get over it, grow up and get in the real world

Edited January 8, 2009 by hyden

[tosh74]

It amazes me why so many are so negative. You would think that we are discussing our own personal kit rather than something bought by the school to use with children (amazingly enough, schools are intended to work with children).

 

If people need to moan so much either find a new job in a different sector or go and ask the head whether you are paid to give children the IT facilities to help them learn or just build your own toy system and stop them using it for anything useful.

 

It's a fact that children and teachers find IT negative in schools where they "aren't allowed" to do things by the technician or network manager (who then prides themself on how well the system is locked down).

 

For those who insist on continually complaining: get over it, grow up and get in the real world

 

Please take up your grievances with IT with your line manager

[hyden]

Please take up your grievances with IT with your line manager

 

I did...... and now I need to discuss his response with my dentist

[Gibson335]

It amazes me why so many are so negative. You would think that we are discussing our own personal kit rather than something bought by the school to use with children (amazingly enough, schools are intended to work with children).

 

If people need to moan so much either find a new job in a different sector or go and ask the head whether you are paid to give children the IT facilities to help them learn or just build your own toy system and stop them using it for anything useful.

 

It's a fact that children and teachers find IT negative in schools where they "aren't allowed" to do things by the technician or network manager (who then prides themself on how well the system is locked down).

 

For those who insist on continually complaining: get over it, grow up and get in the real world

 

I am almost - but not quite - lost for words at the contempt within this reply. Sounds exactly like some of the teachers where I work who despise anything being 'locked down' but would be the first to complain if a workstation wasn't available because a student had been able to misuse it. It's all about providing a system that can be managed and used by all, and the best way to manage it is to try and make sure it can't be misused, and not to have to devote hours of valuable tech support time mopping up after the inevitable spillage. They are not our 'toys'. Instead they are systems on which hundreds of thousands of pounds have been spent and which we are responsible for, including keeping it stable and maintained. Not everything that teachers and students want to do is a good idea. It's not a question of putting up barriers. It's about doing the best job for ALL users and not just pandering to the next whim or knee-jerk indulgance.

[CESIL]

Surely a laptop with a well thought out set of software apps and internet access will be a valuable learning tool for pupils whether it is locked down or not?

 

The users should surely be spending time using the tool not trying to redesign/break it?

[LeMarchand]

It amazes me why so many are so negative. You would think that we are discussing our own personal kit rather than something bought by the school to use with children (amazingly enough, schools are intended to work with children).

 

Possibly because we are keen on making sure that the kit is working for the children?

[Gibson335]

Surely a laptop with a well thought out set of software apps and internet access will be a valuable learning tool for pupils whether it is locked down or not?

 

The users should surely be spending time using the tool not trying to redesign/break it?

 

Of course. But what you're describing is a perfect world, not the one I live and work in. We have a huge damage turnover on staff laptops, and having experienced it for myself, I know what it can be like when students get hold of them. Yes, ideally you'd have sound leadership, responsible parents, responsilbe students and technicians to spare - not to mention the costs of purchase and replacement - but how often do you get all those things? And where exactly is the evidence that it improves teaching and learning?

[hyden]

I am almost - but not quite - lost for words at the contempt within this reply. Sounds exactly like some of the teachers where I work who despise anything being 'locked down' but would be the first to complain if a workstation wasn't available because a student had been able to misuse it. It's all about providing a system that can be managed and used by all, and the best way to manage it is to try and make sure it can't be misused, and not to have to devote hours of valuable tech support time mopping up after the inevitable spillage. They are not our 'toys'. Instead they are systems on which hundreds of thousands of pounds have been spent and which we are responsible for, including keeping it stable and maintained. Not everything that teachers and students want to do is a good idea. It's not a question of putting up barriers. It's about doing the best job for ALL users and not just pandering to the next whim or knee-jerk indulgance.

 

You are quite right to pick up the degree of contempt for some of the previous posts in this thread where the implications are that IT support staff have the right to undermine strategic decisions. I fully agree with you in providing a system which can be managed and used by all. I would, however, be very surprised if you have not experienced those who do treat the school systems as their own personal fiefdom.

 

At the end of the day, we are paid to put vision, strategy and policy into workable practice (for all involved) and to move forward. Where decisions have been made to put laptops into the hands of children, it should be a clear strategic decision taken to move learning forward. I consider it my job to ensure that this CAN and DOES happen in a rational and manageable way. If children can not benefit from our work, we might as well not bother.

[tmcd35]

I'm actually being faced with monster yet again. The issue still hasn't been resolved here. 15 Laptops in Science may or may not need replacing. Science (we're a Science College) have money to burn.

 

The existing laptops do everything they need away from the network - data collection, basic science programs (Multimedia Science, etc). But get complaints with network connections. Now new laptops are not going to solve the problem that WiFi sucks with a 15:1 connection ration and multiple AP in close proximity don't play nice.

 

I get laptops for staff at around £350 each. If I was to agree to replacing the laptops (hell may freeze over first) we'd be spending £650 each on Ergo Hard Case Pro's. And I'd refuse point blank to ever guarantee a usable network connection for them.

 

I'm standing my ground because laptops = problems for us technicians, laptops = problems for teachers, ultimately IMHO laptops = a poor learning experience for the kids.

[hyden]

And where exactly is the evidence that it improves teaching and learning?

 

If there is no evidence that it improves teaching and learning, why do we have any IT in schools at all beyond the administrative tools?

[LeMarchand]

We have a huge damage turnover on staff laptops

 

That bugs me much more than kids damaging stuff. Th teachers are supposed to be responsible adults setting an example, but treat their equipment badly because they know that it will get replaced FOC. Why should they worry that their carelessness means less money to spend on the children?

[hyden]

That bugs me much more than kids damaging stuff. Th teachers are supposed to be responsible adults setting an example, but treat their equipment badly because they know that it will get replaced FOC. Why should they worry that their carelessness means less money to spend on the children?

 

It also tends to set the climate for children's use of equipment.

[Gibson335]

You are quite right to pick up the degree of contempt for some of the previous posts in this thread where the implications are that IT support staff have the right to undermine strategic decisions. I fully agree with you in providing a system which can be managed and used by all. I would, however, be very surprised if you have not experienced those who do treat the school systems as their own personal fiefdom.

 

At the end of the day, we are paid to put vision, strategy and policy into workable practice (for all involved) and to move forward. Where decisions have been made to put laptops into the hands of children, it should be a clear strategic decision taken to move learning forward. I consider it my job to ensure that this CAN and DOES happen in a rational and manageable way. If children can not benefit from our work, we might as well not bother.

 

I do understand what you mean. In my own position, I have to play Devil's Advocate, reigning in all the outlandish ideas and trying to make sure that the practical ones can be carried out and managed. It's not always a matter of undermining strategic decisions, more a question of advising as to whether or not those decisions are practical from a perspective that few teachers or even senior management have: an IT one. What appears to be undermining to some is just sound common sense to others once they have all the factors to hand.

 

As for putting laptops in the hands of students: in an ideal world, why not if it can be justified and afforded? But could that money be better spent? Hard to judge unless the evidence that students with access do better than those without. Does it improve teaching and learning? Can it be managed and supported and, more importantly, can all of that be sustained?

 

It's a tough call, and it's never really ours...senior managers always make those decisions in the end. I provide the pros and cons in relation to what can be achieved and how much it will cost, and even though it's not my money I hate wasting budget on fads and gloss over substance.

[hyden]

It's a tough call, and it's never really ours...senior managers always make those decisions in the end. I provide the pros and cons in relation to what can be achieved and how much it will cost, and even though it's not my money I hate wasting budget on fads and gloss over substance.

 

I couldn't agree more. You can only hope that those decisions are truly strategic and based on outcomes rather than an half formed idea picked up from some evangelisation at a conference.

[DrCheese]

You are quite right to pick up the degree of contempt for some of the previous posts in this thread where the implications are that IT support staff have the right to undermine strategic decisions.

It's not really "Undermining" at all. Schools pay IT staff to advise on IT issues and not just to blindly support whatever flashy wiz bang idea management may come up with. You can't just ignore them because they provide negative feedback. It's exactly that way of thinking that leads to massive overspending on poorly implemented projects.

[Gibson335]

If there is no evidence that it improves teaching and learning, why do we have any IT in schools at all beyond the administrative tools?

 

That's a little obtuse. IT is with us and here to stay, and with Internet and apps use of course you can see that as a tool it will help...the question is whether putting a laptop in the hands of all students is effective enough to justify the costs involved? Now, that may depend on whether you have already kitted your school out well with computers, whether it's a new build, etc. But many teachers who once wanted laptops here balked at the idea of managing trolleys, ensuring chrging was carried out, the inevitable time lost in starting up and shutting down (in non-IT lessons), and clearly saw it only in its glossy terms.

 

A large academy (the largest at the time, perhaps still) in Peterborough not only supplies no students with laptops, but neither does it provide its staff with them. Many academies that I know of don't provide laptops for students. If the evidence for them was clear, surely it would have been done?

 

Who knows? A decent debate, though.

[Gibson335]

I couldn't agree more. You can only hope that those decisions are truly strategic and based on outcomes rather than an half formed idea picked up from some evangelisation at a conference.

 

Well at least we agree on something!

 

And yes, when I know our staff are going to conferences my heart starts hammering twice as fast, because I know they'll each come back with 'the next best thing'.

[DrCheese]

A large academy (the largest at the time, perhaps still) in Peterborough

We've only one academy in Peterborough (Thomas Deacon). I can't confirm the info about laptops but they do offer students the ability to rent a thin client and use that to connect to the network. This isn't a bad idea as it negates a lot of negatives from giving students a fully blown portable laptop with a full blown OS.

Thomas Deacon Academy: Computers at home

[Gibson335]

We've only one academy in Peterborough (Thomas Deacon). I can't confirm the info about laptops but they do offer students the ability to rent a thin client and use that to connect to the network. This isn't a bad idea as it negates a lot of negatives from giving students a fully blown portable laptop with a full blown OS.

Thomas Deacon Academy: Computers at home

 

Yes, that's the one (though I thought Voyager was also an academy).

 

The person responsible for overseeing IT at Deacons when it was going in is my old boss, and having been an avid fan of laptops when he introduced them here, he went right off them when he saw (a) how little they were used by so many teachers, (b) the damage and associated maintenance costs, and © that other options were available and, potentially, better. It was a notion that the main consultant didn't disagre with.