Are ESS trying to make it harder to migrate away from to SIMS?

[supportman]

Anyone staying with this company are basically supporting their business practices.... I think that says a lot.

 

Is there any progress on their 40 million investment and new "next gen" MIS yet? I mean I'm all for fair competition if they have a good product.

[russlp]

Just received:

 

Dear School,We have an important update on your Scomis provided services relating to ESS.

ESS has announced that SIMS Next Generation will be a Cloud based product and cannot be hosted by a third-party; therefore Scomis Hosting Services for ESS products will end on 31st March 2025. Operationally ESS will effectively manage SIMS next generation.

Additionally, the current agreement between Scomis and ESS, which allows us to offer support for SIMS products is due to end on 31st March 2025. Scomis will not be renewing this agreement, so will not be providing SIMS support beyond 31st March 2025.

We understand at this time of year many of you will be considering either contract renewal or a new arrangement. Your options will include remaining with ESS for support.

Last term Scomis facilitated discovery sessions for the three main MIS providers to showcase their products, and it is now time for schools to consider these options carefully and begin to plan next steps.

Please contact your Scomis Account Manager now to discuss your options.

Edited October 10, 2024 by russlp

[psydii]

Anyone staying with this company are basically supporting their business practices.... I think that says a lot.

 

Is there any progress on their 40 million investment and new "next gen" MIS yet? I mean I'm all for fair competition if they have a good product.

 

I think their cloud product looks (and feels) like it could actually be viable in 5-6 years.

[PotNoodleTech]

Yep - ESS are forcing third party support companies be they LEAS or for-profit companies to jump through hoops and accept bad terms and conditions etc so this email as above, gonna happen a lot.

 

Mark my words SIMS is dead in the water within 3 years. ESS are renegotating contracts to get as much money in as humanly possible before it totally dies and they junk it / sell it off.

Edited October 10, 2024 by PotNoodleTech

[psydii]

Mark my words SIMS is dead in the water within 3 years.

 

Maybe.

 

ESS are renegotiating contracts to get as much money in as humanly possible before it totally dies and they junk it / sell it off.

 

 

There is a lot of investment locked up in ESS, this doesn't feel to me like Serco/Advance/CMIS/PRogresso just yet. I'm pretty sure the plan (for all the MIS providers) is to start raising prices prices once the market levels off. Bromcom have demonstrated it is possible to develop and maintain a profitable cloud MIS, so I'm pretty sure SIMS can be a going concern (with a tough management decisions having to be made) even if its market share collapses below 20%. If they can get their cloud MIS upto the "minimum-viable-product" standard for their remaining customers quickly enough they may even arrest their decline and begin to recoup their investment.

[coolhands]

Jeez I don’t wanna change away from sims - all the reports and various things that are set up to come out of it (eg for data analysis reports we make after each year group data collection). It would mean starting again, don’t know if I can take it

[Primus]

Jeez I don’t wanna change away from sims - all the reports and various things that are set up to come out of it (eg for data analysis reports we make after each year group data collection). It would mean starting again, don’t know if I can take it

 

They're down to less than 50% market share, they're bleeding customers hand over fist and their cloud platform is a million miles away.

 

IMHO SIMS is finished, get out before it gets messy.

[DODICT]

Jeez I don’t wanna change away from sims - all the reports and various things that are set up to come out of it (eg for data analysis reports we make after each year group data collection). It would mean starting again, don’t know if I can take it

I think this has been SIMS greatest con. Dear loyal customer, look at the decades of work you have had to put in to make SIMS work , do you want to throw that all away ?! It shouldn't be that hard !! Most schools that migrate are better off in weeks, sure there are compromises but the overall gain is there for all to see in a relatively short space of time. Don't make the mistake of thinking all the work required to get SIMs to where you have it is going to need to be repeated - throw it all in the bin (where it belongs in the current market) and review you processes and you will find they is often a better way, a more efficient way and you wont look back.

[AlistairB1983]

Jeez I don’t wanna change away from sims - all the reports and various things that are set up to come out of it (eg for data analysis reports we make after each year group data collection). It would mean starting again, don’t know if I can take it

Having moved from SIMS to Arbor, twice, it really isn't that time consuming to replicate everything SIMS used to do, and then some. And I expect the same will be true of virtually any other MIS on the market. It's only SIMS that continues to insist on making every job twenty times harder than it needs to be - I suspect to instil this very fear of change to try and Stockholm Syndrome people into sticking with such an awful, failing product.

[synaesthesia]

I suspect to instil this very fear of change to try and Stockholm Syndrome people into sticking with such an awful, failing product.

 

Now there's a good description. ESS - Educational Stockholm Syndrome?

[Ditto]

What strikes me is most discussions focus on functionality of the various MIS, and rightly so. SIMS clearly is well behind most competitors. I see less discussion around price. I oversaw Progresso for a number of years at a growing allthrough school. It functionally was behind the top MIS, but arguably stronger than SIMS. But I managed to get it at a cost per pupil at much less than any of the other suppliers. Are SIMS, Arbor, Bromcom and other MIS cost per pupil broadly the same?

[synaesthesia]

Like for like, SIMS always came out more expensive than the better two - but when you factored in everything else like communications, payments, parental apps etc which were all 3rd party paid for bolt ons, it was massively more expensive overall.

[msi_school]

Jeez I don’t wanna change away from sims - all the reports and various things that are set up to come out of it (eg for data analysis reports we make after each year group data collection). It would mean starting again, don’t know if I can take it

 

If they ever do implement he cloud version you will probably have to redo all of this work and the user experience will be different, so why not have a look at the other options?

[simpsonj]

ScoMIS no longer hosting (or supporting) SIMS is pretty big upheavel, certainly for the South West and neighbouring counties. I wonder how many schools have their SIMS hosted by ScoMIS and are now looking at different options...

[Seb1780]

What strikes me is most discussions focus on functionality of the various MIS, and rightly so. SIMS clearly is well behind most competitors. I see less discussion around price. I oversaw Progresso for a number of years at a growing allthrough school. It functionally was behind the top MIS, but arguably stronger than SIMS. But I managed to get it at a cost per pupil at much less than any of the other suppliers. Are SIMS, Arbor, Bromcom and other MIS cost per pupil broadly the same?

 

We're moving from SIMS and our costs will halve. It's not the cost of the base MIS, it's the additional dozen or more add-ons that sting us. Add to this the benefits and time saving that will come from using just one tool and it's easy to justify the "expensive" newcomers.

[AlistairB1983]

What strikes me is most discussions focus on functionality of the various MIS, and rightly so. SIMS clearly is well behind most competitors. I see less discussion around price. I oversaw Progresso for a number of years at a growing allthrough school. It functionally was behind the top MIS, but arguably stronger than SIMS. But I managed to get it at a cost per pupil at much less than any of the other suppliers. Are SIMS, Arbor, Bromcom and other MIS cost per pupil broadly the same?

 

As a couple of others have mentioned, the 'Core' costs for SIMS are either similar/slightly lower than some of the others (Arbor in our case).

 

However what sold it (pardon the pun) was that by going with Arbor we could terminate the contracts we had with about 3 or 4 other apps/websites that were linked to SIMS, because Arbor did all of that within the same programme.

 

So as a direct 1:1 comparison between the two MIS, yes we pay more per pupil for Arbor than we did SIMS. However in terms of overall budget, we now spend less. Considerably less.

[Ditto]

So better functionality, growing not shrinking market share, compliant with gov advice for cloud based solutions and less expensive. Also, less aggressive company tactics (Bromcom legalities put to one side!) and many people who trodden the path and conclude it was absolutely the right decision. It seems to fit the bill of 'No-brainer'

@coolhands - I don't know your role, but surely the work wouldn't all come down to you. Given the feedback, would you have second thoughts on the idea of an MIS move?

[DODICT]

As somebody that has worked in data for 20 + years, changed MIS 3 times, and had one go badly as an early adopter of Progresso, I still simply wouldn't work for a Trust or school that was using SIMS and didnt have immediate plans to review and change. SIMS is hugely limiting in what you can achieve at scale. Yes you as an individual might think you can do more but you are one person - what the modern cloud MIS do is widen the group of stakeholders that can self serve and get value directly from the MIS. Gone are the days on a small group of people being the SIMS gurus in a school, that is a limiting resource and simply inefficient and ineffective in comparison to enabling others to leverage data and the MIS directly to support their role. And that's judging purely on use and impact not even considering the cost of maintenance and licensing when considering the bolt ons.

[dmj]

We're moving from SIMS and our costs will halve. It's not the cost of the base MIS, it's the additional dozen or more add-ons that sting us. Add to this the benefits and time saving that will come from using just one tool and it's easy to justify the "expensive" newcomers.

 

I was working at a Chromebook school where all the students had Chromebooks, but the teachers had to have windows just for SIMS.

Ditching SIMS would have allowed us to ditch all of our MS licensing and allowed us to use lower cost computers.

We could have cut about 80% of our entire IT budget (or spent it on educational resources). Unfortunately some of the SLT liked SIMS so we had to keep it.

[DBR99]

SIMS is like the Titanic - hit the iceberg ages ago and now rapidly sinking - make sure your in the last of the lifeboats! We're migrating over Oct Half Term.

[DODICT]

Agreed, scramble for the lifeboats but avoid the one that says "SIMS Connected" on it or you'll be joining Leo not Kate . . .

[PotNoodleTech]

Agreed, scramble for the lifeboats but avoid the one that says "SIMS Connected" on it or you'll be joining Leo not Kate . . .

 

Lol our LA are running the MIS gig here - theyre so slow and change adverse that I recon they (and thus we) will be the band playing right till the cold wet end.

[MrEprise]

ScoMIS no longer hosting (or supporting) SIMS is pretty big upheavel, certainly for the South West and neighbouring counties. I wonder how many schools have their SIMS hosted by ScoMIS and are now looking at different options...

 

According to our account manager, there is or has been a legal tussle between ESS and ScoMIS effectively forcing them to withdraw from SIMS hosting/support in 2025. I'm actually none too happy to find out that we're ending up moving to SIMS on-premise until the Trust are in a position to move away (which they're not right now.)

[synaesthesia]

According to our account manager, there is or has been a legal tussle between ESS and ScoMIS effectively forcing them to withdraw from SIMS hosting/support in 2025. I'm actually none too happy to find out that we're ending up moving to SIMS on-premise until the Trust are in a position to move away (which they're not right now.)

 

This wouldn't surprise me - I have 3 support methods for SIMS - Scomis, Edugeek then ESS, in that order! (and we don't use Scomis, it's just a really easy, useful and well googleable website with the info we often need)

[dmj]

According to our account manager, there is or has been a legal tussle between ESS and ScoMIS effectively forcing them to withdraw from SIMS hosting/support in 2025. I'm actually none too happy to find out that we're ending up moving to SIMS on-premise until the Trust are in a position to move away (which they're not right now.)

 

Yeah there's a thread about (one of the Bromcom threads IIRC) how SIMS changed their contracts to prevent third parties accessing the database to drive out competition. Apparently the CMA say that's fine, but the DfE say hosted is the way forward.

Both of those pieces of information should be enough to convince LA's and schools that SIMS is a dead end until they actually release their vaporware platform.