UNISON vote for strike

[Ryan]

Last point from me - we don't get "free dental care" either. My girlfriend went for a checkup a few weeks ago and didn't get much change from £70. I don't even HAVE a dentist 'cos they're so rare and so expensive.

 

Feel free to rant, but check your facts first eh love?

 

Back on topic now. UNISON have voted for a strike...

[cookie_monster]

what's the point of a pay rise if it just pushes up inflation as then we'll just be in the same position as before?

 

Exactly why controlling inflation is more of an issue. The problem at the moment is external influences (which could be short lived) but we don't want to fan the flames with domestic issues as well. A round of public sector pay rises means increased taxes, a round of private sector increases means an increase in the prices of products and services.

 

 

-----------------------------

 

Don't get me started on dentists, ouch

Edited June 24, 2008 by cookie_monster

[Hightower]

So back on topic - Inflation would still rise without pay rises. At the end of us here we are pretty much all skilled workers, but we are all pretty much (with the exception of a few "I'm alright Jack") getting paid an unskilled bottom of the rung wage.

[Gatt]

@Hightower - i feel rather offended by your remarks about the scottish

[localzuk]

Brussels annoys me - we're paying the EU for membership, and they're killing us slowly. Get shot of those idiots, I say.

 

Sorry, I couldn't resist, I'll stay on topic..

 

Nonsense. The EU has helped our country no-end. Without such free travel between countries, and free trade, we'd have a major shortage of people for jobs in the UK.

 

Overall, the EU does a lot more good than bad.

 

The main issue that is sitting behind all our problems are as follows:

 

1. Reliance on foreign oil and gas.

2. Useless muppets in power. They micromanage far too much, but don't provide any decent long term plans - look at transport. There are loads of short term schemes but no overall country-wide transport plan.

3. The availability of cheap credit. Borrowing is simply out of control.

4. Linked to #2 is the lack of a plan on what the UK will be doing to bring money in in the long term. We've lost most manufacturing jobs to overseas now, and many banks are now HQ'd offshore, IT jobs are being offshored etc... What will sustain the UK? What are we going to be exporting to the world?

 

Whilst a decent pay increase may make us feel appreciated/help us pay our bills better in the short term, it certainly won't help us for long. All it will do is compound the existing problems that we have already.

 

We need someone in the government who can actually manage things properly.

[Hightower]

@Hightower - i feel rather offended by your remarks about the scottish

 

How have I offended you? I have merely stated the 'facts' that I read in the paper. I have not been in any way (even according to the PC enthusiasts) been racist to any nation. I have stated my opinion, with details from the newspaper to try and back them up.

 

I'm trying to stick to the topic but how can I with soft remarks like this. It's ok for the English to be called isn't it?! We're the softest nation going!

[cookie_monster]

Inflation would still rise without pay rises.

 

Not necessarily and that's the point why we should take the inflation target payrise and watch. Once speculators stop messing with oil prices they should drop a bit and inflation along with it.

 

 

'facts' that I read in the paper

 

I'd rather you said what you 'read' in the paper not the 'facts' in the paper

[Jona]

So back on topic - Inflation would still rise without pay rises. At the end of us here we are pretty much all skilled workers, but we are all pretty much (with the exception of a few "I'm alright Jack") getting paid an unskilled bottom of the rung wage.

Hmm.... Now inflation may well rise without a pay rise due to external factors (e.g. the economy is slowing down). However if the big unions force pay rises that's bound to increase tax / inflation which will be bad for everyone. There is no point having this "extra" money if in doing so you force up inflation.

 

It certainly is a problem and I don't see a quick fix I just think the unions need to have a wider view of the countries economic conditions.

 

Cheers

Jona

[Jona]

How have I offended you? I have merely stated the 'facts' that I read in the paper. I have not been in any way (even according to the PC enthusiasts) been racist to any nation. I have stated my opinion, with details from the newspaper to try and back them up.

 

I'm trying to stick to the topic but how can I with soft remarks like this. It's ok for the English to be called isn't it?! We're the softest nation going!

Ok if your going to quote a newspaper as fact/evidence we need a link to the story. As I've already provided you with a link that seems to clearly contradict your stated "facts".

[Ryan]

Or a scan of your buttocks, as that seems to be where the 'facts' were pulled from

[cookie_monster]

On a serious note, i don't want to see that scan

[Gatt]

I know what could help this country if we weren't too soft, and I know there's a lot of you guys on here and I don't mean any offense to you (as you are all the hard working guys).

 

Cut the Scottish off. Out of 5 million residents in Scotland, 680,000 are working! that means more than 4 million are out of work. So how, being part of the UK have they managed to get free dental care, free uni fee's etc and we are left to foot the bill?

 

It costs the UK 64% more to keep the Scottish than what they can contribute? So why are we so soft.

 

Put the wall back up is what I say, let them fend for themselves!

 

 

Regarding worker:non worker ratios... Try living round my way (Oldham & Rochdale) with a large Asian community... cos thre are far MORE of them sitting on their arses srewing us for everything comared to those that work!

 

Oldham actually ha a section on their council tax bills for "Unpaid Council Tax" which honest working people have to cough up for!!

[Jona]

Regarding worker:.....

Bit of a troll there. Blaming any country/race/sex/ethnic groupings seem fairly simplistic to me....

 

Back on topic I think

 

Cheers

Jona

[cookie_monster]

I think that's getting off topic again.

[SteveT]

I take it that those who "disagree" with industrial action will refuse to accept any pay rise resulting from such action and return the money to the government? This, of course, would particularly apply to those who are members of the relevant unions and appear happy to accept the benefits their fellow members gain for them but then scab as soon as they are called to fulfil their part!!!

 

If you feel so strongly that the students will suffer significant damage to their education by missing a couple of days from school I suggest you speak to their parents who take them away on holiday during the school term or Heads who allow their schools to be used as Polling Centres during elections!!!! Perhaps you could volunteer to lose some of your holidays to make up for such a significant loss!!!

 

Note: Senior Officers in Local Authorities haven't shown any regard for restraint!! Last figures I had show wage increases of between 5.7% and 7%.

 

7% of £50,000+ is much more significant that 50p per hour extra which is what many LA workers would gain even if the Unions win outright!!!!

 

Remember:

 

1. The claim is for 6% or 50p per hour whichever is the higher.

2. Public sector wages have been depressed for several years to "avoid fuelling inflation".

3. Private sector wage rises are averaging at 4%!!!

4. Inflation is running at 4%. Basic foods, heating etc are rising at an even higher rate.

5. The government want to restrict us to 2% for the next 3 years!!!

 

Local and national politicians haven't shown any regard for restraint, indeed they still have their noses firmly stuck in the trough!!!!

[alexknight]

but where does the increased money come from..?

 

Tax.

 

In times of need most companies get over a recession by letting staff go. Lets assume the Government is a big company. They could instantly save £16 billion by letting go a large proportion of the malingerers who are on incapacity benefit!!! Sack um all I saY.

 

Some solutions are simple really.

 

Alex

[Gatt]

Apologies for going OT but i needed to get a point across...

 

As for the strike...

 

@SteveT - I dont disagree with it - i support it - my only concern is my family.. witha wedding fast approaching i dont think i can afford to strike...

[cookie_monster]

Suggesting that people should give any pay rise to the government is just silly. If i voted not to strike (i won't as i'm not in a union) and it went ahead anyway that's just out of my control. I think we need to get past this current inflation blip that is caused by external pressures before we push for inflation related pay rises. Edited June 24, 2008 by cookie_monster

[localzuk]

I take it that those who "disagree" with industrial action will refuse to accept any pay rise resulting from such action and return the money to the government? This, of course, would particularly apply to those who are members of the relevant unions and appear happy to accept the benefits their fellow members gain for them but then scab as soon as they are called to fulfil their part!!!

 

As I said, I think we should be getting paid a reasonable wage. I've also explained that we need to show restraint. Strikes leading to above inflation pay rises *will not help anyone*. They simply prolong the problems. And as for the benefits of being in a union then scabbing - I pay to be in a union. I pay for the legal protection, I pay for them to help us. But I don't like striking, it is overly damaging.

 

If you feel so strongly that the students will suffer significant damage to their education by missing a couple of days from school I suggest you speak to their parents who take them away on holiday during the school term or Heads who allow their schools to be used as Polling Centres during elections!!!! Perhaps you could volunteer to lose some of your holidays to make up for such a significant loss!!!

 

Sorry but your argument is pathetic. You are talking about things that are completely irrelevant to us. I don't deal with those aspects of a child's life. That should be dealt with by the head. The law is already on the school's side here - no in term time off except for medical purposes or authorised absences. If it is unauthorised, the parents should be prosecuted.

 

Note: Senior Officers in Local Authorities haven't shown any regard for restraint!! Last figures I had show wage increases of between 5.7% and 7%.

 

Evidence please. Anyone can quote random figures.

 

Remember:

 

1. The claim is for 6% or 50p per hour whichever is the higher.

2. Public sector wages have been depressed for several years to "avoid fuelling inflation".

3. Private sector wage rises are averaging at 4%!!!

4. Inflation is running at 4%. Basic foods, heating etc are rising at an even higher rate.

5. The government want to restrict us to 2% for the next 3 years!!!

 

Local and national politicians haven't shown any regard for restraint, indeed they still have their noses firmly stuck in the trough!!!!

 

I think ministers turning down their pay rise this year indicates showing some restraint... But yes, others could do better too.

 

We have to stop thinking purely about ourselves and think how these pay rises affect the economy. At the moment, it won't help, as inflation will simply rise again.

[Jona]

I take it that those who "disagree" with industrial action will refuse to accept any pay rise resulting from such action and return the money to the government? This, of course, would particularly apply to those who are members of the relevant unions and appear happy to accept the benefits their fellow members gain for them but then scab as soon as they are called to fulfil their part!!!

Well starting with how do you suggest people practically do this, ending with the fact that a pay rise is on the cards it's just UNISON are disputing how much it should be this is stupid suggestion! I also dislike the term scab. Surely it's every members right to make up his or her own minds whether they wish to participate in industrial action it's not like your paid by the hour miners, your job will still be there when you come in the day after the strike they aren't taking your job they just doing their own.

 

Note: Senior Officers in Local Authorities haven't shown any regard for restraint!! Last figures I had show wage increases of between 5.7% and 7%.

 

7% of £50,000+ is much more significant that 50p per hour extra which is what many LA workers would gain even if the Unions win outright!!!!

Again I feel I must call for sources for your figures

 

1. The claim is for 6% or 50p per hour whichever is the higher.

2. Public sector wages have been depressed for several years to "avoid fuelling inflation".

3. Private sector wage rises are averaging at 4%!!!

4. Inflation is running at 4%. Basic foods, heating etc are rising at an even higher rate.

5. The government want to restrict us to 2% for the next 3 years!!!

I'm not convinced you can do a direct comparison of private vs. public as private wage increases are much less likely to fuel a large increase in inflation. Whilst I understand a union exists to look after the interests of it's members I think they need to take into account the current economic climate . Otherwise things will be worse for everyone.

[SteveT]

As I said, I think we should be getting paid a reasonable wage. I've also explained that we need to show restraint. Strikes leading to above inflation pay rises *will not help anyone*. They simply prolong the problems. And as for the benefits of being in a union then scabbing - I pay to be in a union. I pay for the legal protection, I pay for them to help us. But I don't like striking, it is overly damaging.

 

No. All Unions are organisations which use the power of the collective to empower workers. The members of a Union pay to employ officers who have expertise in complex areas. The strength of a Union is entirely reliant on the membership acting together. When called to take collective action resulting from a democratic vote I would expect all members to comply. That's the thing about democracy ....... you cannot pick and choose whether to accept the majority wish!!! While striking should be a last resort, history clearly shows that it is sometimes necessary.

 

 

 

Sorry but your argument is pathetic. You are talking about things that are completely irrelevant to us. I don't deal with those aspects of a child's life. That should be dealt with by the head. The law is already on the school's side here - no in term time off except for medical purposes or authorised absences. If it is unauthorised, the parents should be prosecuted.

 

You have stated that striking is wrong because it damages a students education. I am stating that a missed few days in school is neither here nor there. I tried to do so semi-tongue in cheek by pointing out that they do miss days for other avoidable reasons that no-one seems to think significant.

 

 

 

Evidence please. Anyone can quote random figures.

 

See Chief executives' and chief officers' salaries and numbers survey 2006 - feedback circular

 

 

 

I think ministers turning down their pay rise this year indicates showing some restraint... But yes, others could do better too.

 

We have to stop thinking purely about ourselves and think how these pay rises affect the economy. At the moment, it won't help, as inflation will simply rise again.

 

The relationship between local government wages and inflation is contentious at best. There are economists that would argue that only wages involved in the production of goods could possibly drive inflation indeed there are those who deny any connection between wages and inflation.

 

See

 

Safe Haven | Inflation and Wages -- Another Dangerous Economic Fallacy

 

or

 

Why wages are not an inflationary danger

 

 

One economic theory would contend that inflation is actually a tool used by governments and capital holders to increase their own wealth!!!

[cookie_monster]

Surely an increase in public sector wages that are paid for by an increase in taxation can be a cause of inflation.

 

Inflation is measured in lots of ways CPI is only one but it seems to be the one that unison base their arguments on.

[SteveT]

Well starting with how do you suggest people practically do this, ending with the fact that a pay rise is on the cards it's just UNISON are disputing how much it should be this is stupid suggestion! I also dislike the term scab. Surely it's every members right to make up his or her own minds whether they wish to participate in industrial action it's not like your paid by the hour miners, your job will still be there when you come in the day after the strike they aren't taking your job they just doing their own.

 

See my reply to localzuk re the meaning of democracy.

 

 

Again I feel I must call for sources for your figures

 

See my reply to localzuk

 

 

I'm not convinced you can do a direct comparison of private vs. public as private wage increases are much less likely to fuel a large increase in inflation.

 

See my reply to localzuk

 

Next?? :)

[sparkeh]

The relationship between local government wages and inflation is contentious at best. There are economists that would argue that only wages involved in the production of goods could possibly drive inflation indeed there are those who deny any connection between wages and inflation.

 

See

 

Safe Haven | Inflation and Wages -- Another Dangerous Economic Fallacy

 

or

 

Why wages are not an inflationary danger

 

One economic theory would contend that inflation is actually a tool used by governments and capital holders to increase their own wealth!!!

 

Thanks for the sources, I was going to make this point myself but didn't have time to dig out the refs.

[cookie_monster]

Ok but their opinion goes against most current ecconomic thought.

 

The point still exists that the current inflation issue is probably temporary so rushing to make pay awards is still probably not a good idea.

Edited June 24, 2008 by cookie_monster